D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Oofta]

"Official," is not a synonym for, "good thing to have in a notable bit of culture." Is "WotC said it officially, so it is okay, really," only works if WOtC is considered a moral authority. Much as we might prefer to dismiss it all as "they are fictional, so they don't matter," that argument kind of falls apart - by that logic, any fiction depicting racism, or abuse, is okay because "the characters aren't real, and it isn't the real world."

Stories are not "just stories". They are also one of the tools we use to propagate our cultural ideas. So, it pays to at least consider that aspect of the issue.

I do think the idea that alignment and culture is just the default should be more front and center. There could also be more discussion of how different campaigns handle it, although there is the simple reality of page count.

But there have been many, many studies not just of D&D but video games and other popular culture. There is no causal events between violence in games to real world violence. Studies have shown that D&D encourages social skills and problem solving.

I just don't think that a game that reaches a tiny fraction of the population is going to have any real impact. Discuss it? Sure. Get rid of default alignment and all aspects of a default culture ... I think that would be too far.

 

[Remathilis]

Well, no. It’s a step.

I hope you aren’t proposing the completely nonsensical notion that if we aren’t going to go “all the way” overnight, no change is worthwhile.

Because that would be laughably ridiculous of you.

Okay. Let's do that then. Is it that hard?

This

I mean, I’d be down for that.

I mean, I'M not saying that should be the end goal, but it sure as hell seems there is an audience for it. But how much farther is there to go?

They have put any and all sorts of "DMs can change alignments of monsters, these are guidelines" notices in the books. They have allowed PC orcs to be of any alignment for decades. You can create alternative takes on orcs like Wildemont or Eberron does. This hasn't been "good enough". The next logical step is to stop using them in primarily antagonistic roles and treat them no different than elves or dwarves. And then do the same for goblins, gnolls, kobolds, etc.

 

[Remathilis]

I really don’t understand how you can fail to understand the difference.
Ghouls are undead. They are a corpse possessed by an animated desire to feed.

Fiends are not a people, in most media. In media where two fiends can make a baby and that baby grows up and has to be raised, they generally aren’t all evil. In media where they can’t be born, they are much more likely to be all evil.

It’s a very simple difference.

Please tell me if any of these statements are true.

All orcs are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.
All vampires are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.
All succubi are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.

If they are not true, then we must contend with the issue that no sentient species in the multiverse should have a default alignment.

 

[prabe]

Please tell me if any of these statements are true.

All orcs are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.
All vampires are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.
All succubi are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.

If they are not true, then we must contend with the issue that no sentient species in the multiverse should have a default alignment.

I would say that orcs need not be irredeemably evil.

I would say that vampires--as generally portrayed--are cursed in such a way that the only way to redeem then is to slay them, and redemption isn't necessarily a given.

I would say that succubi/incubi, as fiends, are fiends because they have chosen to be evil, and that choice is in the vast majority of cases (like 99%+) impossible to revoke. Redemption is, I suppose possible, but I wouldn't call it likely enough to concern oneself with in the absence of other information (like, about a specific incubus/succubus).

 

[Oofta]

Please tell me if any of these statements are true.

All orcs are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.
All vampires are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.
All succubi are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.

If they are not true, then we must contend with the issue that no sentient species in the multiverse should have a default alignment.

Which is my point as well. These are all fictional creatures. The lore is whatever we make it. Either lore can support creatures with default evil alignment or it can't.

If it can, it's just a question of which ones are evil and it's personal preference and can vary from campaign to campaign. If not, then there's no reason to have the concept of "good" or "evil" in the game.

 

[Charlaquin]

I mean, I'M not saying that should be the end goal, but it sure as hell seems there is an audience for it. But how much farther is there to go?

They have put any and all sorts of "DMs can change alignments of monsters, these are guidelines" notices in the books. They have allowed PC orcs to be of any alignment for decades. You can create alternative takes on orcs like Wildemont or Eberron does. This hasn't been "good enough". The next logical step is to stop using them in primarily antagonistic roles and treat them no different than elves or dwarves. And then do the same for goblins, gnolls, kobolds, etc.

It seems like you’re trying to make a case against such changes, but they sound entirely positive to me.

 

[Alzrius]

I would say that vampires--as generally portrayed--are cursed in such a way that the only way to redeem then is to slay them, and redemption isn't necessarily a given.

Bear in mind that, before his ignominious end in Descent into Avernus, Jander Sunstar was an elven vampire who was presented as being Chaotic Neutral in both the Villains' Lorebook and Children of the Night: Vampires (the former noting that he had Good tendencies).

I would say that succubi/incubi, as fiends, are fiends because they have chosen to be evil, and that choice is in the vast majority of cases (like 99%+) impossible to revoke. Redemption is, I suppose possible, but I wouldn't call it likely enough to concern oneself with in the absence of other information (like, about a specific incubus/succubus).

Well, Fall-From-Grace (of Planescape: Torment fame) is Lawful Neutral according to her stats in Dragon #264, and Eludecia is Lawful Good.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

 

[Charlaquin]

Please tell me if any of these statements are true.

All orcs are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.

This, in my opinion, should not be true.

All vampires are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.

This one is on the borderline. Obviously vampire lore varies from setting to setting, but generally they are born sapient mortal persons and turned into vampires by some means, often a curse. Depending on the specifics (do vampires retain free will after being so cursed? Is the vampire still the person, or an evil spirit inhabiting their corpse? etc.) it might or might not be problematic to say they are all irredeemably evil. In an case, it is not problematic in the same way that orcs all being evil is, because they aren’t a “race”.

All succubi are irredeemably evil and must be put to the sword whenever found.

Again, it kind of depends on the lore of succubi in the setting being discussed. Generally speaking, if they are a race of sapient persons, no. If they are evil spirits of some kind or another, maybe.

If they are not true, then we must contend with the issue that no sentient species in the multiverse should have a default alignment.

That’s a setting conceit I would be perfectly comfortable with.

 

[Remathilis]

It seems like you’re trying to make a case against such changes, but they sound entirely positive to me.

To be honest, it's less making a case for or against as much as predicting the inevitable. The logical endpoint is that the concept of monsters will become irrelevant.

During the Star Wars saga line, WotC put out a "monster" book. It was mostly filled with various alien species that existed in canon, separated into human-like species (the vast majority of them playable as PCs) and beasts like rancors or reeks that were either animal-like or way too powerful to be a PC (or both).

I predict the next "Monster book" that replaces the Monster Manual in 6e looks a lot more like that. A lot of formerly "monsters" will be redesigned to be PC friendly both in terms of lore and mechanics (imagine for example the minotaur, centaur and satyr from Theros becoming the MM default stats). The only things not done like that are beings too powerful (dragons, fiends) or not sentient (golems, beasts). The wall between monster and PC will more or less be gone.

It will be a very different take. Not completely sold on if it will be bad, but it will be different and that will make 4e-sized waves.

What happens next is anyone's guess but based on how PF2e is going, I doubt Paizo will be the safe harbor it was in 2009 for those seeking to avoid these changes. It will be a momentum shift that no one is going to be immune to.

 

[prabe]

Bear in mind that, before his ignominious end in Descent into Avernus, Jander Sunstar was an elven vampire who was presented as being Chaotic Neutral in both the Villains' Lorebook and Children of the Night: Vampires (the former noting that he had Good tendencies).

Well, Fall-From-Grace (of Planescape: Torment fame) is Lawful Neutral according to her stats in Dragon #264, and Eludecia is Lawful Good.

Please note my use of affiliate links in this post.

I haven't read either of those two sources, but I don't think the existence of exceptions changes my positions. Unless you have other information, you're reasonably safe presuming that an incubus/succubus will not choose to be redeemed, and that the safest way to maybe redeem a vampire is to kill it. Orcs ... Well, it depends on the extent to which they're being portrayed as being driven by their gawds (and whether their gawds are ravaging evil).