That's a narrow characterization of the moral panic around D&D in the 80s. It wasn't just (or even mostly) about spells and religious faith. For a great many teachers and parents, depictions of demons and monsters being slain with swords was mindless and lurid violence that would rot kids' minds. I lived in a not very religious part of the world, and at the same time that parents and teachers were cracking down on D&D, they were also suppressing Iron Maiden t-shirts and Conan comics. It wasn't just religious conservatives. Educators and child welfare advocates thought this stuff was unhealthy for young minds and degraded culture.
I would say that conservatism was more dominant at that time compared to today, especially in culture, hence why you could have these sorts of moral panics that were lead by religious and conservative groups, even if all who followed them weren't conservative.
No, you just cited a study which I quoted but will quote AGAIN: "This study examined adolescents' attitudes about video games along with their self-reported play frequency."
It is literally the first line in the abstract.
Did... did you read past that?
"Adolescents who played video games frequently showed decreased concern about the effects that games with negatively stereotyped images may have on the players’ attitudes compared to adolescents who played games infrequently or not at all."
I mean, I can provide more studies if you like.
How about this one?
"The novel findings of the present study were that individuals who play video games with high frequency, particularly males, were more likely to condone negative stereotypic images, to be less critical of negative images, and to view that game content should not change than were individuals who play video games with low frequency. Together, these findings indicate that male and high-frequency players may not only show increases in aggressive outcomes resulting from playing violent video games but also be more accepting of such increases in aggression. These effects may continue with prolonged video game usage and exacerbate each other with time. Repeated exposure to negative stereotypic content potentially reinforces attitudes that could lead to discriminatory and prejudicial attitudes. For example, extensive research on intergroup attitudes has shown that stereotyping leads to discrimination and prejudice (Dovidio & Gaertner, 2000, in press; Gaertner & Dovidio, 1986; Stangor & Schaller, 1996). Regarding authority jurisdiction, the maj"
Or this one?
"his research used a survey design to assess the relationship between White college students’ frequency of video game play and attitudes toward Blacks and Asians. Results suggest that video game play cultivates real-world beliefs about Blacks, such that individuals who spend more time playing video games have less egalitarian views of Blacks."
Can't prove a negative really, but I can provide an article that shows that there is disagreement in the academic community.
Abstract. Despite decades of research, no scholarly consensus has been achieved regarding the potential impact of video games on youth aggression or other
academic.oup.com
Is this a be-all end-all? No of course not. There are differing opinions. Note the word: opinions. To present it as case closed, this is the same as evolutionary theory/gravity is a biiiiit disingenuous.
First off, you can prove that something doesn't have a correlative effect. Secondly, that study is talking about
behavior, not
attitude. Again, it's a crucial difference: video games and other media don't generally influence greater behaviors like causing people to commit assaults (like the study was after). But influencing attitudes? Again, there are plenty of studies out there.
Another study that casts doubt on your claim:
Objective Video game violence has become a highly politicized issue for scientists and the general public. There is continuing concern that playing violent video games may increase the risk of aggression in players. Less often discussed is the possibility that playing violent video games may...
link.springer.com
I mean, this is cool but at the same time the broader point I was making was that media influences attitude. Having one study that disagrees on a specific attitude or behavior change doesn't really dismiss or disprove the idea that media influences things. I mean, I can continue to show you studies that talk about things like stereotyping in video games and how that seems to influence attitudes,
like this one:
"Study 3, an experiment, exposed players to both violent and nonviolent games with both White and Black characters. Participants were faster at classifying violent stimuli following games with Black characters and at classifying nonviolent stimuli following games with White characters, indicating that images of popular video game characters evoke racial stereotypes."
Interesting, since you have yet to supply this data? I know you think you have. But...a single link to a single article which is a survey does not a solid case make. Keep in mind, this is not a scholarly journal. I do not EXEPCT scholarly research from anyone here, this is not the format for it.
First off, I linked
two, but I guess you ignored the other. But I limited myself to video games and race/gender when we're talking about the broader topic of media influence. You can look up the influence of movies, television, music, etc. It's all the same stuff: culture and media. D&D is not suddenly divorced from these, living it a vacuum.
Maybe I will one day hear an argument and be convinced and go 'Oh no, I was wrong!' This happens, believe it or not, time to time. Of course, this argument has to be a bit better than 'of course it is duh theres tons of evidence out there it is well known!' because, well, that is the same argument that has been used to promote fallacious and erroneous thinking since time began.
I mean, your entire argument is largely anecdotal and based around your own disbelief in the topic when there is an entire field of study on it. I don't expect you to be convinced, but that's not for lack of evidence.
I guess it CAN, strictly speaking, but DOES it? Again: Which person has experienced harm because orcs were portrayed as always evil? You talk a lot about video games and provide links to a (single) study (survey) of (attitudes of adolescents towards) video games but video games are engaged with in different ways than table top games are.
Why would you assume the effects would be the same?
All this amounts to that you are taking a stance based on what you believe rather than what can be shown.
I mean this is fine, when it comes down to it. This aint a scholarly journal, we are not scientists (maybe you are?). This is about opinions. But let us not pretend that this is such an open and shut case as you claim it to be.
Forgive me a bit of a hyperbolic example, but...they used to think the earth was flat. This was, as you say, well documented and well known.
But let us go back to the Satanic Panic comparisons.
I mean, I linked
two at the start just as examples, but I could literally link a new media study for each of these quote blocks showing that media influences people attitudinally. I don't know how many I would need to actually get you to admit it, but if you desire I could keep going.
The better question is not "but DOES it?", but rather
why wouldn't it? What makes D&D so special that it can't possibly influence anyone's attitudes towards anything? I mean, I think
@Scribe 's description of what happened with GW and its fictional universes as a great example of how those things can influence attitude: it can be taken in the wrong way, latched onto by the wrong people, and then promoted to people who are first exposed to it in the wrong way. This is easier to do when your already dealing with fraught topics like authoritarianism and racism like 40K was.
I assure you there were psychological studies and science showing how D&D turned one to drugs/violence/antisocial behavior. These were later proven to be erroneous...but that is how science works. It is constantly being updated, changing, proving and disproving.
I mean, if we follow this logic then we can't trust anything science says because it's gotten things wrong in the past. Sure, these things
could be wrong... but why not find the evidence for it rather than obliquely trying to imply it?
Influencing you to go out and read a fantasy book is not the same thing as influencing you to go out and mistreat someone. Influencing someone to buy some dice is not the same as influencing someone to objectify women. I can be easily influenced to read more about a topic I find interesting. I have no...wall? resistance? to that. But cmon. Let us not act like that is the same thing as influencing someone to go out and treat others poorly.
It's not even "going out and mistreating someone". You act like it has to activate some sort of behavior when it could just reinforce stereotypes or otherize people. It's not that hard to do: again, I direct to the movie Bright for a disastrous way this occurs.
You speak as if D&D is forcing hands. As if the people playing it have no choice but to become more and more okay with negative stereotypes towards real life people because of how the game deals with fake cultures/races.
I mean, actually I didn't say
anything like that, so please don't strawman me.
The greater point is that D&D can't be removed from the context of society, and because society has systemic problems, those can carry through to D&D if we aren't careful with how you do things. Orcs being more primitive, tribal people who attack and raid humanoids around them? Well, feeds into a lot of stereotypes of colonized peoples: Native Americans, Mesoamericans, and Native Africans. Those are long-held media portrayals which eventually start to drift together, and even if you try to rehabilitate them ("Oh, they are so much more connected with nature!" or "Look upon he, the noble savage!"), it's still a bad, negative stereotype. And if you don't believe it exists, I would again direct you Bright, where they follow through on it and basically portray Orcs as African Americans.
Again, these aren't necessarily explicit in the books, but also we're at a point where WOTC needs to (or, really, has started to) realize what GW did before: that how things are right now, there is definitely a portion of the audience that does this and that they need to fight back against it.
Wildemount also sort of showed a recognition of this.
Again though. Go and tell someone suffering from discrimination in the real world this: That WOTC taking out alignments/stats from a D&D book has improved their lives. That WOTC changing their lore to be more socially acceptable will help them.
I mean, I wish I could do more, but it's a helluva lot easier to influence WOTC compared to a lot of other places. A smaller, younger fanbase that is interested in social justice allows me to focus on making
some level of change rather than no change at all.
Like, you try to ridicule changing something from being a bad Romani stereotype by saying "Do you think they really care?" and knowing a Roma dude,
yes, they don't like it. I suppose when you've had some of your family get killed in the Holocaust and your cultural name being epithet for getting screwed, you end up caring about being portrayed as spies and enemies. The biggest thing is that most probably don't know it exists, which is why most don't concern themselves with it.
There were child psychologists and mental health experts in the 80s contributing to the alarmism around D&D and fantasy. Parents were being warned that young people (let's be honest - young men) were detaching from normal, healthy society and becoming obsessed with immersing themselves in lurid, violent fantasy worlds.
It wasn't just fundamentalist preachers arrayed against sword and sorcery, heavy metal, etc. A lot of well-intentioned, educated people believed young men were falling prey to their worst instincts of morbid fantasy and self-indulgence, and that adults in authority had a responsibility to save them from themselves. The producers of D&D, fantasy novels, heavy metal music, etc were seen to be polluting vulnerable minds with unhealthy fictions and imagery that contributing to anti-social behaviour. There were suicides linked to both D&D and heavy metal. So child welfare advocates certainly had (or felt they had) proof of the real consequences of the media they were against. Terrible and real harm.
Again, I feel like a lot of that was the influence of cultural conservatism, where religion and its perceived morality had a great deal more cultural influence than it does today. The state of the field is also a bit different, I would say, looking back at the DSM editions.
Edit: But also who is leveling what is different, too: in the past the accusations were largely speculative, focusing around the fanciful and the maybe less fanciful. The people who are talking about it today are talking about how it directly impacts them, how they feel, and how they see it within the community. The current complaints are just that much simpler to explain and rely less on speculative possible behavior and more on directly observable stuff as well as their own interactions with it.