D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

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MGibster

Legend
I'm not sure with Mind flayers, but there are cultures that consider eating brains as a Holy thing, even human brains. Some eat brains during funerals.
I think most of us see a difference between ritual cannibalism as part of funerary rites and actually killing a human or an elf to get at their delicious, nutritious brains. If someone wants to argue that mindflayers aren't evil, well, go ahead, but I think that's a tough row to hoe.
 

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Scribe

Legend
I think most of us see a difference between ritual cannibalism as part of funerary rites and actually killing a human or an elf to get at their delicious, nutritious brains. If someone wants to argue that mindflayers aren't evil, well, go ahead, but I think that's a tough row to hoe.
Does a Flayer need to eat sapient brains?
 

Are there any negative cultural traits that can’t be mapped to real-world prejudices and stereotypes? Thieving, dishonest, savage, duplicitous, greedy, gluttonous, licentious, arrogant, cowardly, stern, haughty, barbaric, decadent, cruel, lazy - all stereotypes of one group or another. If we excise these from the game, aren’t we left with a bunch of generic, undifferentiated communities?
 

Wishbone

Paladin Radmaster
I think most of us see a difference between ritual cannibalism as part of funerary rites and actually killing a human or an elf to get at their delicious, nutritious brains. If someone wants to argue that mindflayers aren't evil, well, go ahead, but I think that's a tough row to hoe.
A benevolent mind flayer society where members of a certain age are ritually sacrificed like Logan's Run or The Lottery to feed the few mind flayers would be a trippy way to combine the two concepts you described. Rather than things like cancer or the ravages of old age taking out members of the population they'd live on in a weird way as memories in the mind flayer rulers. Though the matter of psychic indoctrination would make it hard to disentangle the two and there are obvious moral concerns regardless of if it is entirely willing or not.
 

Scribe

Legend
Are there any negative cultural traits that can’t be mapped to real-world prejudices and stereotypes? Thieving, dishonest, savage, duplicitous, greedy, gluttonous, licentious, arrogant, cowardly, stern, haughty, barbaric, decadent, cruel, lazy - all stereotypes of one group or another. If we excise these from the game, aren’t we left with a bunch of generic, undifferentiated communities?

Some will say 'You cannot declare an entire lineage to be X, period.'.
 

TheSword

Legend
Or...

One is a humanoid version of hyenas, adopting the negative stereotypes about those animals and extrapolating them into a stronger, meaner humanoid opponent. They are Scar's hyenas from the Lion King except on two legs and carrying weapons.

While the other is a morality tale about how beautiful, sexually forward women (and sometimes men) will turn you from virtuous living though temptation by "draining" your vitality while leading you to greater and greater acts of evil and depravity until you are consumed.

Also, succubi aren't Abyssal anymore. They are their own type of fiend and work for both sides. FYI.
Ok. Well I can point you towards lots of references in D&D to gnolls as tribal desert raiders.

Can you point to examples where Succubi aren’t what I described?
 


MGibster

Legend
A benevolent mind flayer society where members of a certain age are ritually sacrificed like Logan's Run or The Lottery to feed the few mind flayers would be a trippy way to combine the two concepts you described.
Have you read Logan's Run or the Lottery? I don't think either one of those were what we'd call a benevolent society.
 

Argyle King

Legend
Sure. I will warn, however, that I have no patience for rhetorical games.

Nothing I've said has been rhetorical. (And let's be honest, we're on a message board, so whatever attempt is being made to seem tough is laughable.)

So, with that in mind, I'll ask what I've said elsewhere: how does the construction of the fantasy world intersect with trying to adhere to real-world concerns?

Personally, I agree with your espoused view that the in-game workings of a fictional world should be considered when looking at how that world works.

Though, I would also add the caveat that I do not believe that gives a designer an excuse to write racism into the game. For example, I do not believe that a game should be able to be designed a world based around saying Nazis were actually the good guys and expect that to be palatable to the real-world audience; something like that should (imo) be shunned.

So, as I understand it, that means there is somewhere that a line is drawn between real-world and the narrative world. For you, that line (as I understand it) is drawn at beings made from other elements. For others, there has been a position taken which seems to imply that saying sentient beings -even those with no real world analogy- who are categorically bad or "evil" means racism.

I'm inclined to believe many of those things exist on a spectrum. However, there seems to be little consensus concerning where the generally acceptable ballpark of drawing the lines is.

So, I ask questions: questions which aren't rhetorical. Sometimes that may mean bringing up an example which you (or someone else) feels is silly. But it may not be silly to someone else, and a lot of this thread has revolved around offensive elements existing in the game exactly because questions weren't addressed.

At some point, people write a piece of media need to sit down and create the product. In the context of a game, this includes creating the fictional world and the components contained within.

So, looking back at my questions, my point has been (consistently) to explore how the design of a TTRPG (D&D in this case) addresses real-world concerns while also acknowledging that the product includes a fictional world.

In my opinion, dismissing those questions or acting as though they are somehow beneath a value required to consider them is why most of the threads about this topic go in circles.

I want to know what ideas people have for steps forward. I want to hear thoughts concerning when it's acceptable to draw inspiration from the real world and when it isn't. I want to explore what actual tangible steps are involved in moving forward. That's likely going to include questions which make people uncomfortable, but change often is uncomfortable.

So, for you -for you personally- where do you place lines concerning what is acceptable?
 

Wishbone

Paladin Radmaster
Have you read Logan's Run or the Lottery? I don't think either one of those were what we'd call a benevolent society.

I have seen Logan's Run—never read the book—and read The Lottery way back in high school. I meant the concept of ritual sacrifice as an analogue not the entire society.
 

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