D&D General Old School DND talks if DND is racist.

[Charlaquin]

• Alignment. Orcs are vicious raiders, who believe that the world should be theirs. They also respect strength above all else and believe the strong must bully the weak to ensure that weakness does not spread like a disease. They are usually chaotic evil.
• Alignment. Tieflings might not have an innate tendency toward evil, but many of them end up there. Evil or not, an independent nature inclines many tieflings toward a chaotic alignment.

I mean, if thats what we are going with, I guess it is what it is.

I'm pretty sure we agree that as far as PC defaults, that there shouldnt be any.

Right. So Tieflings don’t have an innate tendency towards evil, but orcs do, according to those passages. I’ll concede that couching it in “may not” and “but many of them end up there” is uncomfortable, as is the inherent tendency towards chaotic alignments. And I’ll agree that we’d be better off removing these alignment entries for PC races. But, I also don’t see any reason any natural humanoid shouldn’t be able to be a PC race. So, I don’t think natural humanoids should have fixed alignments.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I understand what you're (I think) saying.

I do agree that there should be reasons for choosing to include (or not include something) in a story.

That being said, I'll again say that I think it's weird to imagine a world which is built upon completely different aspects of reality and/or natural laws, yet have everyone in said world still act exactly the same as they would if those differences didn't exist.

The Thermian Argument seems to imply that it is a fallacy to say differences would create differences. I don't believe that holds up even when looking at different periods of time in the real world. Just the difference that I can type this reply while walking on the treadmill at the gym, using what is essentially a handheld computer (smart phone) creates a very different world than one in which I was waiting for the screeching of dial-up to tell me I was online in the 90s. A lot of mystery novels and movies are approached differently now that most of the population can record video and post to social media.

I'm open to accepting that perhaps certain aspects of humanity exist regardless. I watch The Expanse, and (despite being very different than the real world around me) there are obvious parallels to things found in real world history (such as the Cold War, the "Age of Discovery," the plight of marginalized people in a period of colonization, and etc).

I mean, the bigger thing is that the Thermian Argument is about how an author can't escape the critique for their creative decisions by using in-universe justifications. However you want to justify a decision in-universe, that reasoning doesn't matter to why you made the decision outside of the universe.

Actually heres a funny thing....

Volos.

• Alignment. Orcs are vicious raiders, who believe that the world should be theirs. They also respect strength above all else and believe the strong must bully the weak to ensure that weakness does not spread like a disease. They are usually chaotic evil.

Eberron.

• Alignment. The orcs of Eberron are a passionate people, given to powerful emotion and deep faith. They are generally chaotic, but can be any alignment.

Exandria.

• Alignment. Ores fear the curse of ruin that is said to plague their race, and tend strongly toward either chaos (accepting their fate), or toward law (rejecting it).

Ixalan

• Alignment. Most orcs lean toward chaotic alignments, and many serve on pirate ships that encourage an inclination toward evil.

So whats REALLY the problem here beyond some poorly worded fluff in Volo's? OR, is every one of these a problem, and we simply cannot default (or even SUGGEST) that there is an Alignment for a lineage?

I dont know. I remain where I started. Clean up the clearly poor text (CoS, Volo's) but the alignment stuff isnt the problem.

I mean, I think the roleplaying part of the text kind of got people.

Most orcs have been indoctrinated into a life of destruction and slaughter. But unlike creatures who by their very nature are evil, such as gnolls, it's possible that an orc, if raised outside its culture, could develop a limited capacity for empathy, love, and compassion.
No matter how domesticated an orc might seem, its blood lust flows just beneath the surface. With its instinctive love of battle and its desire to prove its strength, an orc trying to live within the confines of civilization is faced with a difficult task.

The opening line about "indoctrination" is meant to be a qualifier, but then again apparently even if you raise it outside this culture it will still only develop a "limited capacity" for certain emotions. That, along with "no matter how domesticated" stuff, is pretty cringe.

 

[Charlaquin]

Even in Eberron Fiends embody Law and Evil.

The Great Wheel isn’t just Planescapes cosmology. It - or a variant - is the standard cosmology in D&D.

Now you may wish that was thrown out but WOC seems to be showing no sign of doing so.

Another good reason to use “native to the material plane” as the line.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I'm fine with a world's culture having suggested alignments/worldviews, but I'm not okay with it being attached to race/lineage.

 

[TheSword]

Another good reason to use “native to the material plane” as the line.

Aboleth? Beholders? Mind Flayers?

 

[MGibster]

Is the ettin wearing pants?

Two pair for some reason.

 

[Oofta]

Another good reason to use “native to the material plane” as the line.

What about red dragons?

I mean I know, I know those don't look like people, etc. But to me it's the mind, the brain encased in the head of the dragon, that matters. I don't personally have an issue with dragons being evil (or orcs) but if we're going to say that it's "bad" to have a default alignment, I don't see why form should matter.

It's not racism, but it is ... formism (I guess?).

 

[Scribe]

What about red dragons?

I mean I know, I know those don't look like people, etc. But to me it's the mind, the brain encased in the head of the dragon, that matters. I don't personally have an issue with dragons being evil (or orcs) but if we're going to say that it's "bad" to have a default alignment, I don't see why form should matter.

It's not racism, but it is ... formism (I guess?).

No it is racism. Its fundamental 'this thing is other'. If that 'other' is a sapient being, the argument that its OK for IT to be labeled and judged because it doesnt look like ME, is absolutely racism.

I mean how is it not?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Even a real world organization such as the one you mentioned has involuntary members and members who are not actively pursuing violence. To say it's okay to murder them all just makes you another extremist group. Which is another type of bigotry - as I said.

No, it doesn’t. You have made a wildly incredible claim supported by nothing.
Killing invading nazis isn’t murder. The end.

"All of them are evil because of the jersey they are wearing" is just as bigoted as killing all of a race.

Evil organizations, such as the ones being created as antagonists, have evil means and therefore can easily have members who were forced into the organization. Murdering them all because of guilt-by-association is also bigotry.

Trading less popular bigotry for more popular bigotry isn't a solution to bigotry. It's just a different kind.

This is just the fallacious form of reductio ad absurdum, mixed with a weakly built strawman.

Firstly, no one said anything about killing non-combatants. Stop making stuff up and attributing it to the person you’re disagreeing with.

Second, no, killing invading nazis is not comparable to killing any Spaniard you meet because they’re Spaniards. Obviously.

 

[Charlaquin]

What about red dragons?

I mean I know, I know those don't look like people, etc. But to me it's the mind, the brain encased in the head of the dragon, that matters. I don't personally have an issue with dragons being evil (or orcs) but if we're going to say that it's "bad" to have a default alignment, I don't see why form should matter.

It's not racism, but it is ... formism (I guess?).

Yeah, honestly I would prefer dragons not have fixed alignments either. It doesn’t bother me as much, because they are pretty far removed from anything resembling people, but there is something low-key icky about dragons’ scale color defining their moral tendencies. Moreover, I just think it makes for better stories if dragons can be any alignment regardless of their color.