Old school/new school definitions -- meaningless?
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
Melan
Explorer
In my opinion, they are accurate in that there is a revival of interest in old school games or game material, and the publication of such. A few reasons which probably play into it:Quasqueton said:
1) d20 and the OGL as a publishing vehicle.
2) 3e's role in galvanizing older gamers to check out D&D or simply RPGs again - people who brought their own preferences back to it more or less intact because they didn't play in the new school period (post-Dragonlance, although the exact dates are debatable).
3) The rejection of 3e by some of the same gamers, who saw it, looked it, maybe even tried it or played it, but ultimately went back to their old games.
4) The rise of the Internet as a medium of communication, with the possibility of organizing scattered communities with a common interest.
And maybe others. Nevertheless, there is an "old school" style and a "new school one". To deny that there is an identifiable style usually called "old school" is like saying there are no Englishmen, because they are all different. Sure they are. But on the average, there is a concept of "Britishness", existing both as a concrete fact and as an abstract ideal, or even stereotype.
First: the way many people use the definition is a lot more strict than you try to paint it in your opening post. Dragonlance by that yardstick is anything but old school - it is the very antithesis of it. Now, of course, it is just an opinion, but one that is common enough for us to pay attention.
Second: to say that one bad or good module in particular reflects on all modules of the same mold in general is a gross simplification. Obviously, people like good adventures and dislike bad ones. Old adventures have an advantage in this field - over the years, the cream has risen to the top, and ideas which seemed good at first (Swords&Spells the OD&D supplement, AD&D as a strict tournament game, etc.) fell by the wayside. What we have now is things tested by time. New school products don't have this advantage yet. No "canon" has been formulated yet, although I am sure it is in the making.
brehobit
Explorer
Old school, IMO, can be summarized in three words:
Life isn't fair.
Broken down you get:
You can die or get hosed really easily.
As others have mentioned, traps, NPCs and opponents can be unfair. Things like a module for 4-7th level chars and a baddy who get 4 attacks, each doing d6 damage. And you have to make a save (vs. Spells) or be unable to survive out of water. Cured only by 4th level cleric spells.
I just ran a 3.5 game where I killed the PCs over a more-or-less random encounter. The opponents were tough, but they had a 1 day warning. The PCs played poorly and were making metagame assumptions about the baddies. This resulted in death. One player (who plays a LOT) commented it was the first PC he'd had killed (ever, in 3.0 I'm not sure).
The balance part of "fair" isn't there.
Balance in terms of magic items/gold is missing. One adventure you might get a lot of loot, the next one a rust monster might eat your stuff. Heck, there were baddies that had a % chance of causing even magical weapons to shatter! While our group (in 2nd ed) had a very small amount of this happen, happen it did.
PCs weren't equal
I'd claim most classes are getting closer and closer in power and flavor and PCs are getting more and more similar to eachother. The book of battle (whatever it is called) adds spell-like effects to warriors. Wizards are not horribly useless in hand-to-hand combat anymore. Folks argue all the time that there should be no d4 classes (and I agree). This is very new-school. In old-school a 3rd level wizard might well have 9 hit points. Rolling stats could easily give you a +0 CON modifier. Now, with point buy (which most use from what I can tell), CON is generally the 2nd highest stat for a wizard.
I'm not claiming one is better than the other. But they are different.
Kids these days....
Mark
Life isn't fair.
Broken down you get:
You can die or get hosed really easily.
As others have mentioned, traps, NPCs and opponents can be unfair. Things like a module for 4-7th level chars and a baddy who get 4 attacks, each doing d6 damage. And you have to make a save (vs. Spells) or be unable to survive out of water. Cured only by 4th level cleric spells.
I just ran a 3.5 game where I killed the PCs over a more-or-less random encounter. The opponents were tough, but they had a 1 day warning. The PCs played poorly and were making metagame assumptions about the baddies. This resulted in death. One player (who plays a LOT) commented it was the first PC he'd had killed (ever, in 3.0 I'm not sure).
The balance part of "fair" isn't there.
Balance in terms of magic items/gold is missing. One adventure you might get a lot of loot, the next one a rust monster might eat your stuff. Heck, there were baddies that had a % chance of causing even magical weapons to shatter! While our group (in 2nd ed) had a very small amount of this happen, happen it did.
PCs weren't equal
I'd claim most classes are getting closer and closer in power and flavor and PCs are getting more and more similar to eachother. The book of battle (whatever it is called) adds spell-like effects to warriors. Wizards are not horribly useless in hand-to-hand combat anymore. Folks argue all the time that there should be no d4 classes (and I agree). This is very new-school. In old-school a 3rd level wizard might well have 9 hit points. Rolling stats could easily give you a +0 CON modifier. Now, with point buy (which most use from what I can tell), CON is generally the 2nd highest stat for a wizard.
I'm not claiming one is better than the other. But they are different.
Kids these days....
Mark
Just read the original PH and DMG and play a few games using those rules. You'll find the DM is given much more power and leeway compared to new school. Yes, you die more easily, so its important for a group to be smart and work together using their main specialty.
There are no unifide method of determining every action. Thats up to the DM. Its more dangerous, much quicker to play, and more abstract (with minute long combat rounds).
C&C you will find is similar, esp. if you just don't use the SIEGE system to determine saves. Use the DMG save table.
There are no unifide method of determining every action. Thats up to the DM. Its more dangerous, much quicker to play, and more abstract (with minute long combat rounds).
C&C you will find is similar, esp. if you just don't use the SIEGE system to determine saves. Use the DMG save table.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
What makes a module old or new school?
OLD: The adventure assumes a party of 8-10. NEW: The adventure assumes a party of 4.
OLD: Your PC can die at any moment. NEW: Safeguards are in place so your PC will only die if you-as-player are incredibly stupid.
OLD: You can get incredibly rich if you bother to look for the loot; you can also come out broke if you fail to look...or fail to find. NEW: No matter how much you look, you'll not do much better than what the guidelines suggest for your level, but it's all sitting there in relatively plain view.
OLD: It's a dungeon...a connected series of underground rooms, caverns, etc....with limited connection to the campaign setting; in other words, it can be dropped in almost anywhere. NEW: It's anything *but* a dungeon, and is usefully playable only in its original setting unless the DM does a near-complete rewrite.
OLD: Whoever designed the place was on crack. How else to explain the overly twisty hallways, lack of toilets, traps that would do nothing but inconvenience the occupants, etc.? NEW: All such interesting aspects are gone.
OLD: The maps are in 10' squares indoors, hex outdoors. NEW: The maps are in 5' squares indoors, miles-to-the-inch outdoors.
OLD: Monsters couldn't fit out the exit of their lair (see Sword of Hope), had no visible means of support, yet were in prime condition when encountered. NEW: The ecology notes are longer than the adventure notes.
OLD: Whatever monster or opposition you meet, you gotta deal with it whether you're in theory capable of such or not...or run. NEW: The opposition is designed to be exactly x-amount of challenge to y-level party z-number of times per day.
OLD: The main adventure map was on a detached cardboard cover. NEW: There is no main adventure map, and all the little individual maps are in with the printed text and never on the same page as the room description you're using.
OLD: The module expects you to die. NEW: The module expects you to live.
How's that?
Lanefan
OLD: The adventure assumes a party of 8-10. NEW: The adventure assumes a party of 4.
OLD: Your PC can die at any moment. NEW: Safeguards are in place so your PC will only die if you-as-player are incredibly stupid.
OLD: You can get incredibly rich if you bother to look for the loot; you can also come out broke if you fail to look...or fail to find. NEW: No matter how much you look, you'll not do much better than what the guidelines suggest for your level, but it's all sitting there in relatively plain view.
OLD: It's a dungeon...a connected series of underground rooms, caverns, etc....with limited connection to the campaign setting; in other words, it can be dropped in almost anywhere. NEW: It's anything *but* a dungeon, and is usefully playable only in its original setting unless the DM does a near-complete rewrite.
OLD: Whoever designed the place was on crack. How else to explain the overly twisty hallways, lack of toilets, traps that would do nothing but inconvenience the occupants, etc.? NEW: All such interesting aspects are gone.
OLD: The maps are in 10' squares indoors, hex outdoors. NEW: The maps are in 5' squares indoors, miles-to-the-inch outdoors.
OLD: Monsters couldn't fit out the exit of their lair (see Sword of Hope), had no visible means of support, yet were in prime condition when encountered. NEW: The ecology notes are longer than the adventure notes.
OLD: Whatever monster or opposition you meet, you gotta deal with it whether you're in theory capable of such or not...or run. NEW: The opposition is designed to be exactly x-amount of challenge to y-level party z-number of times per day.
OLD: The main adventure map was on a detached cardboard cover. NEW: There is no main adventure map, and all the little individual maps are in with the printed text and never on the same page as the room description you're using.
OLD: The module expects you to die. NEW: The module expects you to live.
How's that?
Lanefan
Len, nice summary man. Makes you wonder why "old school" modules went out of favor for so long :\
When did "new school" modules start? Probably Dragon Lance was the begining of something that really sparked the "new school" movement?
4E will come out soon, and IF it takes 3Es core players with it (and focuses less on rpg play) I think a big revival of "Old School" is might occur (there are already signs of this if you look).
When did "new school" modules start? Probably Dragon Lance was the begining of something that really sparked the "new school" movement?
4E will come out soon, and IF it takes 3Es core players with it (and focuses less on rpg play) I think a big revival of "Old School" is might occur (there are already signs of this if you look).
Last edited:
Mycanid
First Post
While I did like the listing of EXAMPLES of differences between the two "schools" (good work Lanefan) I was hoping for further attempts at descriptions of the ... err ... essence of the difference between the two. I've a few ideas of my own (most of which I posted and were lost before the crash) but I am always interested to hear other's ideas on this matter....
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Not sure how to define the "essence" other than to suggest playing through a module that meets all the "OLD" requirements, then playing through a module that meets all the "NEW" requirements, and see how different the game feels. Then, try DM-ing one of each...Mycanid said:
Many of the examples I listed would to some extent represent or cause differences in style of play - this too would be part of the "essence" from both sides of the screen.
Lanefan
Mycanid
First Post
Yes my good sir ... I know exACTly what you mean. ::sigh:: :\ SOmetimes these things are easier to describe through reference points and by personal experience than to articulate "objectively". You gave a pretty good hack at it though!
Maybe I'll try to gather together my thoughts more and try to articulate more of my thoughts on the matter. I wish the good thief Glyfair would poke his nose in on this thread. He often has some very good insights into this sort of thing. Raven Crowking sometimes does too....
When it does not devolve into "edition/ruleset wars" it is actually one of my favorite topics to see discussed in the threads in here....
Maybe I'll try to gather together my thoughts more and try to articulate more of my thoughts on the matter. I wish the good thief Glyfair would poke his nose in on this thread. He often has some very good insights into this sort of thing. Raven Crowking sometimes does too....
When it does not devolve into "edition/ruleset wars" it is actually one of my favorite topics to see discussed in the threads in here....
howandwhy99
Adventurer
Lanefan said:What makes a module old or new school?
OLD: The adventure assumes a party of 8-10. NEW: The adventure assumes a party of 4.
OLD: Your PC can die at any moment. NEW: Safeguards are in place so your PC will only die if you-as-player are incredibly stupid.
OLD: You can get incredibly rich if you bother to look for the loot; you can also come out broke if you fail to look...or fail to find. NEW: No matter how much you look, you'll not do much better than what the guidelines suggest for your level, but it's all sitting there in relatively plain view.
OLD: It's a dungeon...a connected series of underground rooms, caverns, etc....with limited connection to the campaign setting; in other words, it can be dropped in almost anywhere. NEW: It's anything *but* a dungeon, and is usefully playable only in its original setting unless the DM does a near-complete rewrite.
OLD: Whoever designed the place was on crack. How else to explain the overly twisty hallways, lack of toilets, traps that would do nothing but inconvenience the occupants, etc.? NEW: All such interesting aspects are gone.
OLD: The maps are in 10' squares indoors, hex outdoors. NEW: The maps are in 5' squares indoors, miles-to-the-inch outdoors.
OLD: Monsters couldn't fit out the exit of their lair (see Sword of Hope), had no visible means of support, yet were in prime condition when encountered. NEW: The ecology notes are longer than the adventure notes.
OLD: Whatever monster or opposition you meet, you gotta deal with it whether you're in theory capable of such or not...or run. NEW: The opposition is designed to be exactly x-amount of challenge to y-level party z-number of times per day.
OLD: The main adventure map was on a detached cardboard cover. NEW: There is no main adventure map, and all the little individual maps are in with the printed text and never on the same page as the room description you're using.
OLD: The module expects you to die. NEW: The module expects you to live.
How's that?
Lanefan
QFT
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