OSR Old school wizards, how do you play level 1?

[Snarf Zagyg]

Nice summary!
A couple of comments:

• The Dying Earth RPG by Pelgrane Press has a rather nice codification of Vance's magic system.

The Pelgrane Press Dying Earth RPG (written by Robin Laws!) is an excellent RPG that really captures the feel of Vance. The books are worth grabbing just to read, even if you don't play them.

I know that Goodman Games also has a DCC Dying Earth series, but I just don't find the match of DCC and Dying Earth to be a great one.

 

[Krachek]

In A DnD starting at level 1 is a DM choice. It induce a sense of danger, frailty, and the satisfaction of progression and survival.
It’s about gaming experience. There is no logic there.
If those don’t appeal players nor the Dm, start at higher level, like Gygax who start his personal game at level 3.

 

[Micah Sweet]

In A DnD starting at level 1 is a DM choice. It induce a sense of danger, frailty, and the satisfaction of progression and survival.
It’s about gaming experience. There is no logic there.
If those don’t appeal players nor the Dm, start at higher level, like Gygax who start his personal game at level 3.

If the campaign is supposed to represent the PCs first venture into the dangerous world away from home, then it absolutely makes logical sense to start at level one.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

In A DnD starting at level 1 is a DM choice. It induce a sense of danger, frailty, and the satisfaction of progression and survival.
It’s about gaming experience. There is no logic there.
If those don’t appeal players nor the Dm, start at higher level, like Gygax who start his personal game at level 3.

It is a sickness I have trouble shaking into 5e…I feel compelled to “earn” advancement and to not fudge rolls for character creation and so usually start at 1st.

It’s a hangover from my AD&D days which is ironic! Considering what u said about Gygax starting at 3rd!!!

 

[Krachek]

If the campaign is supposed to represent the PCs first venture into the dangerous world away from home, then it absolutely makes logical sense to start at level one.

I think DnD should not try to represent or simulate anything.
Experience point, leveling, starting level, are gaming tools, their link with reality is very thin.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I think DnD should not try to represent or simulate anything.
Experience point, leveling, starting level, are gaming tools, their link with reality is very thin.

We haven't met yet, but let me tell you I strongly believe in the opposite view. I prefer a simulationist approach to D&D-style traditional gaming, and want aspects of the setting modeled as closely to the world (that being for me real world reality unless obviously otherwise) as much as is practically possible. Things like experience points, leveling, and hit points, among others, are necessary abstractions needed for practical play. You include them because you have to IMO. When I have the option of choosing world-sense over game-sense, world wins.

 

[Mannahnin]

If we are sticking to BX and AD&D level 1 human MU who has already cast their one spell I don’t see Gandalfs cleave with a magic sword as helpful because it is specifically prohibited.

I don’t remember what Vance wizards did either, I remember one beating a foe with a big spell and that ended the combat so no description of any non casting rounds of combat. But I only read one of his Dying Earth novels. Are there useful models for things to do when not casting in any of the others?

I think they just talked crap about their enemies at that point. Which Vance's characters are really good at. It's sort of surprising that Vicious Mockery didn't show up until 5E.

They could use swords like anyone else (Mazirian brings and uses one on his adventures), but the more powerful or less athletic ones generally didn't bother because they'd have servants (mundane, or magical like Sandestins) or wouldn't expect multiple instances of threat or danger to occur in short succession and so exhaust their spells.

Nice summary!
A couple of comments:

• Also stolen from Vance in AD&D : one version of the Binding spell (minimus containment), Imprisonment and its reverse (=the Forlorn Encystment, a much classier name from Vance), and of course Clone.
• I feel like in one of the original Mazarin stories he mentions that through practice he had developed the ability to "encompass" six minor spells or four major ones.
• The Dying Earth RPG by Pelgrane Press has a rather nice codification of Vance's magic system.
• The Lyonesse trilogy shares a somewhat similar magic system to the Dying Earth series but with more emphasis on fairies and their magic. Sandestins are only briefly mentioned but Murgen and Tamurello seem very similar in abilities to Rhialto and his ilk.

The Pelgrane Press Dying Earth RPG (written by Robin Laws!) is an excellent RPG that really captures the feel of Vance. The books are worth grabbing just to read, even if you don't play them.

I know that Goodman Games also has a DCC Dying Earth series, but I just don't find the match of DCC and Dying Earth to be a great one.

Design Mechanism also published a Lyonesse RPG in 2020. I couldn't resist getting it in hardcover. It's an adaptation of the BRP / Mythras system, and has two different magic systems directly emulating what we see characters use in the Lyonesse books- fairy magic aka cantraps, and Sandestin magic.

 

[Mannahnin]

We haven't met yet, but let me tell you I strongly believe in the opposite view. I prefer a simulationist approach to D&D-style traditional gaming, and want aspects of the setting modeled as closely to the world (that being for me real world reality unless obviously otherwise) as much as is practically possible. Things like experience points, leveling, and hit points, among others, are necessary abstractions needed for practical play. You include them because you have to IMO. When I have the option of choosing world-sense over game-sense, world wins.

Mythras AKA BRP (same core system as RuneQuest, going back to the 70s) does have character advancement in the form of skills, but like most skill-based systems it doesn't have experience levels.

I don't think levels or hit points are "necessary". They're choices. BRP uses hit points but it makes them location-based, and uses armor as DR. D&D chooses to use more abstract HP and armor class because it wants simpler, looser combat rules which are more narrative-focused.

 

[Celebrim]

I don't think levels or hit points are "necessary".

I agree that they aren't "necessary" but I'm in the midst of running a long campaign for the first time in a system without hit points, and wow do hit points make life as a GM much easier. That ablative plot armor is almost better for GMs than it is for PCs because it allows you to prepare and run challenges in a much more predictable fashion. Without hit points, the line between an easy walk over and a TPK is just super narrow. Without hit points, too many things come down to single die rolls. Hit points mitigate against luck and let the dice fall where they may so much better than other concepts.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Hire a shield bearer asap to stand in front of me. Throw daggers or sling stones when out of spells.