OSR Old school wizards, how do you play level 1?

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yes, let's go with the fantasy archetypes that led to the D&D classes and class fantasy, that points us straight to JRR Tolkein's Lord of the Rings and Jack Vance's Dying Earth. Both of which presented magic-users in ways very similar to TSR-era D&D classes. Gandalf casts maybe three spells across the LotR books and in Dying Earth wizards' brains can only hold a few world-altering spells at a time. Going with fictional archetypes is arguing against at-will cantrips.

Outside of RPG circles, how many people have even heard of Jack Vance at this point? He's an obscurity. So is Fritz Leiber, unfortunately.

So yeah, it made sense, more or less, in 1974 (although if we're channeling Gandalf, magic-users should have been allowed to use swords as they could in TSR's Dungeon! board game, so I think Gygax was just treating the classes like wargaming units, with very specific niches). But since popular fantasy has trended ever-upward in terms of how magical it is, even independent of Harry Potter, it's not a surprise that many players' expectations have shifted.

 

[overgeeked]

Outside of RPG circles, how many people have even heard of Jack Vance at this point? He's an obscurity. So is Fritz Leiber, unfortunately.

Absolutely true, but beside the point. If we're looking at the literary origins of D&D, that's where we have to look.

So yeah, it made sense, more or less, in 1974 (although if we're channeling Gandalf, magic-users should have been allowed to use swords as they could in TSR's Dungeon! board game, so I think Gygax was just treating the classes like wargaming units, with very specific niches). But since popular fantasy has trended ever-upward in terms of how magical it is, even independent of Harry Potter, it's not a surprise that many players' expectations have shifted.

Yep. Today the dominance of anime, manga, and light novels is indisputable. If the game were updated to today's audience it would draw from those sources. Which were largely influenced by Record of Lodoss War, which was based on a Basic D&D campaign, which was based on those same now obscure Western literary sources.

A modern designed D&D magic system drawing on anime, manga, and light novels would look wildly different than what's presented in 5E or 5.5. You'd have mana or magic points. You'd have no schools of magic as D&D presents them. You'd have no division between wizards and clerics, depending on the sources chosen. You'd also have no at-will cantrips because everything would cost mana. It might be an insignificant cost from a large pool, but it wouldn't be infinite.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Absolutely true, but beside the point. If we're looking at the literary origins of D&D, that's where we have to look.

Yep. Today the dominance of anime, manga, and light novels is indisputable. If the game were updated to today's audience it would draw from those sources. Which were largely influenced by Record of Lodoss War, which was based on a Basic D&D campaign, which was based on those same now obscure Western literary sources.

A modern designed D&D magic system drawing on anime, manga, and light novels would look wildly different than what's presented in 5E or 5.5. You'd have mana or magic points. You'd have no schools of magic as D&D presents them. You'd have no division between wizards and clerics, depending on the sources chosen. You'd also have no at-will cantrips because everything would cost mana. It might be an insignificant cost from a large pool, but it wouldn't be infinite.

I wonder how well such a game would sell. Seriously, I have no idea. However, I would applaud WotC for making a stand on anything by publishing it.

 

[Voadam]

Yes, let's go with the fantasy archetypes that led to the D&D classes and class fantasy, that points us straight to JRR Tolkein's Lord of the Rings and Jack Vance's Dying Earth. Both of which presented magic-users in ways very similar to TSR-era D&D classes. Gandalf casts maybe three spells across the LotR books and in Dying Earth wizards' brains can only hold a few world-altering spells at a time. Going with fictional archetypes is arguing against at-will cantrips.

Eh, Gandalf was cleaving goblins with a magic sword as most of his combat actions. I would go with his burning pine cones thrown at wargs as a preferable model. Minor but magical.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I think Gandalf played like a celestial patron warlock…

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

I'm too lazy to go through all 29 pages of thread to see, but has anyone just answered "briefly, before rolling a new character and hoping for more than one hit point" yet?

 

[Voadam]

I would go with the Steven Strange in the comics as a good model. Vancian sounding special spells (Crimson bands of Cyttorak!) but also a minor repeatable eldritch bolt for a lot of fights.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think Gandalf played like a celestial patron warlock…

"Old school" in this context means 2017, when Xanathar's was released.

 

[overgeeked]

Eh, Gandalf was cleaving goblins with a magic sword as most of his combat actions.

Yep. So that's an argument for giving TSR-era magic-users proficiency with swords, not giving them cantrips.

I would go with his burning pine cones thrown at wargs as a preferable model. Minor but magical.

Right. And how many times did he do that? Once. Adding in the Hobbit gives Gandalf a total of what...5-6 spells cast across the entire series. Still a far cry from infinite cantrips.

 

[overgeeked]

I would go with the Steven Strange in the comics as a good model. Vancian sounding special spells (Crimson bands of Cyttorak!) but also a minor repeatable eldritch bolt for a lot of fights.

Right...but doesn't that utterly detach from the TSR-era design? I thought the point of the thread was talking about what magic-users did back-in-the-day. Not how we'd redesign and update the game to modern tastes.