Older Minion LF Younger Adventurer

[Zinovia]

Experienced Minion seeks Younger Adventurer for some dungeon excitement. I'll put the fear of god into you before you finally luck out and 1-shot me to the heart. High to-hit bonus a plus.

I really like minions as the countless mooks, the back-up, the swarming rabble, the hordes of individually weaker foes that overwhelm only by sheer numbers. You are just so badass that you can cleave through the zombie hordes as they mindlessly reach towards you to devour your brain. It's very cinematic, and fun for the players.

Level 1 minions are easy for level 1 characters. But what about level 5 minions? Or level 10? They should also be trivial for foes of their own level, but is it right to use them in a fight against a level 2 or 3 party? Their higher defenses will make them more difficult to hit, but if they do get hit, they still go down with 1 point of damage. That's not very satisfactory to me. The level 10 minion should be a real and immediate threat to a level 3 party. I think the assumption that minions are trivial to kill breaks when the minion creature *should* be more powerful than your character. Even a lucky hit shouldn't take one out if it's several levels higher than you.

Before you go saying, "Well Zin, that's all fine from a theoretical standpoint, but no one would go writing higher level minions into a fight unless they were part of a bigger encounter and facing characters of about the same level," I'd like to point out that there's an encounter in KotS that does just that. Sure, the minions have some buddies, but none of the same "type". Spoiler info below.
[sblock]There are several level 5 Vampire Spawn in Area 18: Cathedral of Shadow without any other undead there to support them. Sure, there's an underpriest, and a Dark Creeper, whatever that may be. But given that Vampire Spawn are created when vampires drain people, how did they get there? I believe the rest of the undead in the keep were there all along, not imported. I expect the party will be about level 3 when they face that encounter - not a large difference in level, but still significant to me.[/sblock]
In this instance the primary issue I have is that the minions are of somewhat higher level than the party. it seems to be a means of introducing a higher level, more interesting creature to a lower level group, while ensuring that they can beat it easily if they land a single hit.

Now perhaps minions are just very weak examples of their type. Maybe all those poor minions out there were victims of the Great Minion Fever of '47 that reduced all of them to the point where they die if you look at them funny (See Cleric Power: Laser Glare). So are they more or less normal creatures who are literally on the verge of dying if they cut themselves in the kitchen, or is their "minion-ness" a relative trait only, and not applicable to much lower level creatures?

Unaccompanied Minions
This movie campaign is intended for mature audiences opponents only. Minions will not be admitted unless accompanied by a parent or guardian.

Personally I find it odd to see minion creatures of a given level without other similar creatures who are not minions. An encounter that consisted of fighting only minions is certainly possible, but shouldn't be that difficult for the characters unless the numbers were truly overwhelming. Minions seem to be the ultimate means of increasing the numbers of opponents your party faces without putting them into true peril of their lives. The fact that it may be difficult to tell that they are "just minions" makes it all the more scary for the group, not knowing what they are facing. So while I can see doing a fight with unaccompanied minions, I much prefer to place them in an encounter with others of their type, or someone such as a necromancer who is commanding them.

So how do you feel about minions? Is it okay to use a higher level minion against a lower level party? Is it just a fun way of introducing variety, or does it break the ground rules for minions and why they are so easy to kill in the first place? Clearly I don't like the idea of having a higher level creature that is easily defeated by a lower level group that lucks out enough to actually land a hit on one. If it's tough, then it won't go down in one hit. My take on minions is that they should only be minions if they are the same level as the party, or lower, otherwise they aren't "minions" anymore, regardless of their stat block. They need hit points and real damage rolls. But that's dependent upon my interpretation of "what it means to be a minion".

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, cloud of daggers or flaming sphere would auto most minions regardless of level ..

 

[Tony Vargas]

I like the idea of minions, the address a problem in prior versions of the game. In the past, throwing 'hordes' at players was fun, for some of them, at least (the wizard with fireball or the fighter with great cleave), but the threat they posed was so minimal there was a temptating the DM to hand-wave the fight (rather than make all the rolls and track all the hps) or for the players not to take it seriously.

Minions neatly solve both problems - they still hit hard and often enough to be a creadible threat, and they have zero bookkeeping for the DM, just remove them when they're hit.

Higher level minions are dicey as a primary antagonist. Yes, they go down when you hit them, but that may leave a certain lack of satisfaction for victory over such a dangerous foe. They may have an AC high enough that the party just has to get lucky to hit them, and that'll make the combat very unpredictable. A good roll early on, and the minion folds like any other minion, a few rounds with no one rolling the high number needed to hit, and it'll have killed someone.

 

[Switchback]

As a player, and DM perspective as well, I don't like the idea of higher level minions (beyond plus 1 or 2). It seems to violate the 4th wall in a way much worse than the traditional minion.

A minion has 1 HP, but that is meant to be an abstraction against the current level of the party. It doesn't really mean that a strong breeze or the creature accidentally slipping on some rocks is going to kill it. It just means that a solid connecting blow from a equal level adventurer is going to put them out of commission.

For instance a level 10 fighter and quite master swordsman might know to how to dispose of a level 10 Vampire Spawn minion in one hit, but a level 1 adventurer has no hope of doing the same. For him the creature should take much more than 1 hit to kill. Figuring out exactly how many is probably not worth it, though you could probably work up some general type of rule like for every 3 levels above the party, a minion takes a extra hit or something. But that quickly gets dicey when you factor in things like Dailies that do 30 damage only counting as 1 hit.

It would seem to make much more sense to just under level a monster in the old fashioned way and make them an all around balanced threat, vs being a offensive juggernaut that collapses like a poster board cut out. That can be understood to work at even levels but the whole concept breaks down when you have a big level differential.

 

[wolff96]

Higher level minions are dicey as a primary antagonist. Yes, they go down when you hit them, but that may leave a certain lack of satisfaction for victory over such a dangerous foe. They may have an AC high enough that the party just has to get lucky to hit them, and that'll make the combat very unpredictable. A good roll early on, and the minion folds like any other minion, a few rounds with no one rolling the high number needed to hit, and it'll have killed someone.

Personally, I think "minion" is a relative term.

If you want to use a specific minion -- like Vampire Spawn -- against something outside of their normal level range, then they really aren't a minion any more.

At that point, crack open the DMG, pick numbers appropriate to the level of the party (and varied by difficulty) while maintaining the powers that made you select that minion in the first place.

And then you're done.

 

[Dausuul]

"Is it okay to use a higher level minion against a lower level party?"

Up to a point, I say yes. The PCs in my current campaign just hit level 2, and I've got them battling orcs. Now, orcs are one of the archetypal "mook monsters." They were made to be minions. The lowest-level orc minion is the 4th-level Orc Drudge; but I haven't had any trouble with them. The PCs can still hit them pretty reliably, and they don't always hit the PCs.

For me, the key is that minions must be used as minions. They're mooks, cannon fodder for the boss monster - or, if there is no boss monster, they're a crazed and leaderless horde swarming over the PCs. As long as the minions can still fit into the "mook" role, it's fine to use 'em, even if they're a bit higher-level than the party. But if a minion is so high-level that it's filling the role of a regular monster, you should swap it out for a regular monster.

I extend this to other monster types as well - I'll take high-level normal monsters and adapt them for low-level play, by scaling their level down and then turning them into elites or solos. I recently wanted to make my party fight an angel, but even the lowest-level Angel of Valor was too high-level to make a good fight; the PCs would have spent most of their time whiffing, while the angel very very slowly ground them down. So I adjusted its level down by 8 (I know, I know, you're not supposed to go past 5), then solo-ized it. About the same XP value and overall "punch" as a regular Angel of Valor, but a lot more fun to fight.

 

[Starfox]

The trick is that you get four minions at the price of a single "real" monster. Use them in groups! And 4 level 10 minions will most certainly be a serious challenge for a lvl 2 party.

 

[Blackbrrd]

As a player, and DM perspective as well, I don't like the idea of higher level minions (beyond plus 1 or 2). It seems to violate the 4th wall in a way much worse than the traditional minion.

A minion has 1 HP, but that is meant to be an abstraction against the current level of the party. It doesn't really mean that a strong breeze or the creature accidentally slipping on some rocks is going to kill it. It just means that a solid connecting blow from a equal level adventurer is going to put them out of commission.

For instance a level 10 fighter and quite master swordsman might know to how to dispose of a level 10 Vampire Spawn minion in one hit, but a level 1 adventurer has no hope of doing the same. For him the creature should take much more than 1 hit to kill. Figuring out exactly how many is probably not worth it, though you could probably work up some general type of rule like for every 3 levels above the party, a minion takes a extra hit or something. But that quickly gets dicey when you factor in things like Dailies that do 30 damage only counting as 1 hit.

It would seem to make much more sense to just under level a monster in the old fashioned way and make them an all around balanced threat, vs being a offensive juggernaut that collapses like a poster board cut out. That can be understood to work at even levels but the whole concept breaks down when you have a big level differential.

Actually you should be looking at how many attacks you need to make before you have enough hits to kill a minion. A typical minion will be hit roughly 60% of the time. 10 attacks will kill 6 minions. A level 10 minion will probably only be hit 20% of the time, so 10 attacks will kill 2 minions. They are in other words three times as durable. You don't have to increase the hp of a minion, their defenses fixes that for you.

 

[Incendax]

Hit points are an abstraction by themselves. They could represent anything inside the range of a hulking orc dripping blood from a dozen gashes, to the nimble swordmaster who has evaded every blow you swing though you are steadily exhausting him.

Minions are no different. They are a tool used to create an abstract, not actual breeds of hideously fragile monsters.

Feel free to portray the minions as taking damage. You can even narrate their bleeding, dodging, howling and more. Go so far as to say "Hit!" and possibly make them roll damage just to be confusing. Ignore the damage. You don't want the bookkeeping. Just keep in mind about how many swings the party has taken and if they keep on missing, let him drop after a statistically average number of blows.

 

[Cirex]

The trick is that you get four minions at the price of a single "real" monster. Use them in groups! And 4 level 10 minions will most certainly be a serious challenge for a lvl 2 party.

Level 10 minions should never be opponents for a level 2 party.

Minion is a very abstract concept. A level 10 monster is a minion for a level 10 character, but for a level 2 character they are probably full grown monsters capable to destroy the PCs.

You could place a level 26 (I think that was highest) minion against a level 1 party in hopes that he gets adyacent to some other enemy so he can get killed by cleave and the party gets massive experience. It's as stupid as it sounds.