Older Minion LF Younger Adventurer

[Danceofmasks]

Level 26 minion vs. level 1 party?
Wizard casts cloud of daggers.
Minion gets a turn, and dies.

 

[Zinovia]

The trick is that you get four minions at the price of a single "real" monster. Use them in groups! And 4 level 10 minions will most certainly be a serious challenge for a lvl 2 party.

Of course they will. The party will have a very difficult time hitting them at all, and the level 10 minions will hit them most of the time in return. The PC's will be freaking out at how tough these things are, until they get lucky and roll a 20, slaying one in a single blow. I don't like that scenario, so I would never have the group face minions more than a level or so above the party's level. Use a real monster if you want something that is that much of a threat to the players. A level 5 or 6 creature will be tough, hard to hit, and damaging to the group, and give them a thrill when they defeat it. A minion 8 levels higher than the group isn't a minion any more, by my interpretation.

Besides, at least in my group, there's a player who is used to rolling low and still hitting with his primary attack at 15th level in 3.5. I can only *imagine* the complaints I'd have if I deliberately threw stuff with really high defenses at him so that he missed it most of the time.

In the KotS fight I mention above, the minions are probably only 2 levels higher than the party, so it's not totally out in left field somewhere. For that particular fight I have thought of a reason for letting them be "defeated" in one round - but it's not because they are minions as such.
[sblock]I'm going to say the vampire spawn are some of the spirits of those slain in the keep, compelled by magic to defend the underpriest in the area. I need to figure out a loophole in his command spell that will allow the conditions of the compulsions to be met so long as the vampire spawn (which I will be describing differently than real vampire spawn) take a single hit from an opponent. They want to be freed, and their spirits will depart as soon as they take 1 hit. Perhaps they will thank the players for releasing them to their rest, or curse the underpriest as they fade away. [/sblock]

 

[KarinsDad]

I had similar issues as the OP. When I was DMing 4e (for two weeks, but one of my players wanted to DM, so I jumped at the chance to play instead), I introduced the concept of Tough Minions.

A Tough Minion is identical to a normal minion except:

1) It has double XP. So for the same XP encounter, I could put in 4 regular minions, or 2 regular minions and 1 tough minion, or 2 tough minions.

2) On an even amount of damage, it dies. On an odd amount of damage, it takes "1 hit point".

3) It has 3 hit points.

4) A Tough Minion hit twice (i.e. with 2 hit points of damage) is bloodied (2 is a more or less an average number of times that a regular non-boss foe needs to get hit in order to bloody it, so the Tough Minion appears to be a normal foe).

5) A set damage attack like the second round of Cloud of Daggers does 1 hit point to a Tough Minion, but does not kill it unless it is the third such attack (i.e. the minion took 3 hit points of damage). These types of attacks ignore rule #2.

Note: I never told my players about rule #2, they just knew that there were regular minions and tough minions in the game system. I also rolled a random dice at the beginning of every tough minion encounter to determine if it was odd damage that killed them or even damage. The players never figured out my rule for kiling off the tough minions (although, they only met them twice I think in 2 play sessions).

Similar to the 3 strikes and you are out rule of unconsciousness, Tough Minions have 3 strikes and you are out. But, they can easily fall on the first or second hit as well.

This resolved many of the issues which cardboard minions. Even the higher level ones can last for several rounds of combat and are not auto-taken out via Cloud of Daggers, etc.

But the thing that this resolved the most for me was the players KNOWING that a given foe was NOT a minion because he took a successful hit, so that they should target their anti-minion powers elsewhere. I did not like the metagaming aspect of that.

The concept of Tough Minions kept the players guessing which I find to be a good thing. It's more challenging when the players do not know all of the ins and outs of their opponents. IMO.

And, it allows the DM to throw some higher level Tough Minions at the group and the players consider it just another encounter, not a "minion encounter".

 

[Dausuul]

Actually you should be looking at how many attacks you need to make before you have enough hits to kill a minion. A typical minion will be hit roughly 60% of the time. 10 attacks will kill 6 minions. A level 10 minion will probably only be hit 20% of the time, so 10 attacks will kill 2 minions. They are in other words three times as durable. You don't have to increase the hp of a minion, their defenses fixes that for you.

The problem with this is that it relies too heavily on abstract probabilities; it doesn't work out that way in actual play. High-level minions are ridiculously "swingy." That 10th-level minion might go down in a single attack, or it might take eight or nine attacks before somebody connects. That can have a tremendous effect on the outcome of the fight. Non-minion monsters are much less volatile.

 

[Regicide]

The concept of a minion is pretty poorly done. What happens if your party has a torchbearer, does it kill them in one swing? A pet? A mount? What if they fall, or there is treacherous terrain that is causing damage? Theres no room to have these things have an impact on the game with the 1 hp/1 hit rule. Having low level creatures in 3E was fine, yes, they couldn't hit PCs often, but thats why there was the assist rules, touch attack options and such. In 4E I'll rarely if ever use minions, I'll just use low level NPCs and cut the numbers down a bit to account for the fewer attacks per round in 4E. My PCs murder enough sentient beings per session, I don't need to up it.

 

[Switchback]

Actually you should be looking at how many attacks you need to make before you have enough hits to kill a minion. A typical minion will be hit roughly 60% of the time. 10 attacks will kill 6 minions. A level 10 minion will probably only be hit 20% of the time, so 10 attacks will kill 2 minions. They are in other words three times as durable. You don't have to increase the hp of a minion, their defenses fixes that for you.

No, I get what your saying as far as it simply being a math equation on how hard they are to kill. Your right a level 10 is much harder to kill. But from an endurance standpoint, I just don't like the idea of lets say swinging and missing something that potentially should be very buff, like a giant, and then when you connect on that 10th blow it instantly explodes like a pinata.

I guess all those 'misses' could be understood as really having hit in this or that minor way, but its just hard to wrap your thoughts around that when you roll and commonly say "I miss".

 

[Switchback]

Level 26 minion vs. level 1 party?
Wizard casts cloud of daggers.
Minion gets a turn, and dies.

Exactly. At these level differences, the balance of various classes and powers goes out the window. While the Wizard is killing level 26 minion's once per round, the fighter is swinging and missing endlessly except on 20's. I know the Wizard is a minion controller... but that kind of stuff is a bridge too far for me.

The problem with the way KarinsDad explained using them, well not really problem, but just that to give them '3 hits' makes them not really minions anymore. If you have several of them and have to track how many hits they have. That is just a simpler version of down leveling it seems. The concept of the minion is to prevent any bookkeeping in the first place. Once you are tracking or even having to just remember how many of the 3 HP they have left, you might as well be giving them 30 HP or some other normal type number.

I like the minion explained as a 'mook' as it was above. For the players to understand the creatures in the world and for it to have any consistency it seems troublesome to have any creature as a potential minion. When you fight a Troll, or some beefy baddy, it should be understood between the player and DM that its not going to fall the first time it gets hit. Orc's, Kobolds, Mercenaries and the like, sure. When players can't depend on things like a Troll being an ordeal to bring down, your tactics and planning are just going to be a crapshoot.

 

[ValhallaGH]

In this instance the primary issue I have is that the minions are of somewhat higher level than the party. it seems to be a means of introducing a higher level, more interesting creature to a lower level group, while ensuring that they can beat it easily if they land a single hit.

And it does one other thing. It lets the DM know that there's something in that region of adventure that can make that type of monster. This introduces a brand new hook and adventure idea to the DM and the players.

Really, who doesn't like that?


As an aside, higher level minions are a great way to introduce something you want to use later without the threat of fighting a full-on version. The devil soldiers of the Hellguard Legions are terrifying warriors individually, but it's their endless numbers that make them truly dangerous. Having a small detachment guarding a vile cult leader is a great way to hint at larger things further in the campaign, while leaving the encounter easy enough for the PCs to manage.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Older Minion LF Younger Adventurer

Need to see pic of said MiLF before I'll apply for this.

 

[Zinovia]

As an aside, higher level minions are a great way to introduce something you want to use later without the threat of fighting a full-on version. The devil soldiers of the Hellguard Legions are terrifying warriors individually, but it's their endless numbers that make them truly dangerous. Having a small detachment guarding a vile cult leader is a great way to hint at larger things further in the campaign, while leaving the encounter easy enough for the PCs to manage.

I have no objection to using a weaker version of a particular monster against the players. As you say, it's a great way of tying plot elements together. Why does the leader of the orc tribe have a devil standing behind him whispering into his ear when your party bursts into the throne room? Perhaps the devils have been using the orcs to advance their own sinister plan, and thus the hook for the next adventure is planted.

If the devil type is a minion by the book, but is much higher level than the party, then it should not be treated like a minion as such. It's defenses make it a challenge for the group because they will have a hard time hitting it. The issue is that fighting it becomes very swingy. A natural 20 early on and the thing goes down quickly. If the dice gods have cursed the players with a string of low rolls, it will hang on for a long time and the characters will begin to fear for their lives. I'd rather treat it as a real monster a bit closer to the character's level. Describe it as being the same type as the usual higher level minion version, but use stats that reflect a creature closer in level to the group, with normal attacks and hit points. The characters will have a better chance of landing a hit on it, and they will have to hit it more than once for it to die.

It's not the ability of the characters to defeat a higher level minion that concerns me, since they will eventually get lucky and beat it (if they don't get killed first). It's the idea of a creature that is presenting a difficult challenge to the PC's popping like a soap bubble when they finally land a hit. Minions having only 1hp works great for lower or equivalent level swarms of monsters that the PC's should be able to plow through. That assumption breaks if the minion is scarier (higher level) than the PC's.

Personally I won't be using higher level minions against a lower level group. Sure, I could use the same type of creature, but it will be revised with some real stats before fighting them. Fortunately that should be pretty easy for me to adjust.