Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Do you carefully consider every one of those actions for every creature on every turn?
D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable
- Thread starter Rushbolt
- Start date
It's not that you will.
It's that you can.
Johnny wants individual skeleton actions knowing that he won't abuse it and will 95% of the time just move all the skeletons at once and roll all their attacks one time.
But opening up that option allows Jimmy at another table to carefully consider every skeleton action because that's technically the rule. And Jakey on the other hand is just a slower player and has to go through all the motions 6 times for each skeleton.
Jakey and Jimmy ruin it for Johnny.
It's just like 2014 Conjure spells. Even my least attentive player started weighing his options after accidentally abusing action economy and seeing effectiveness.
If they are my "horde" I would. As DM no.
Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Hence the advice in the book explaining what using these rules risks. Way better IMO than just saying "no".
No table is required to use these rules. If someone has to say no let it be the GM, not the rules.
Designed a game aspect that is obviously broken or disruptive with a disclaimer that it is obviously broken or disruptive and that players much promise not to abuse it is a bad public commercial sales strategy.
That's why no one does it.
MHP weakened their necromancer class so that being disruptive is harder.
JiffyPopTart
Bree-Yark
NOTE: I've long since given up on 5e being a system that is simulationist enough for my tastes. This post is just about what I'd like to see that would fit within its rules framework
I'm all for individual undead, not swarms or spirits or area affects. Here at my concessions ...
1. It takes a long time to make an undead. Creating undead is a ritual spell and takes one hour per individual.
2. Choose from two forms of basic undead, skeletons or zombies. Each have a basic template that scales up in power based on the level of spell slot used to create the undead. Skeletons quicker but weaker, zombies slower but stronger. There is design here for other types of undead with balanced tradeoffs.
3. Spell slots used to create an undead cannot be recovered until that undead is destroyed. Then the slot can be regained on a rest as normal. Only slots gained from the necromancer levels qualify for undead creation. The necromancer can have up to PB number of undead created at one time.
4. Undead can be directed with a simple menu of commands. Attack (for example) is move towards the nearest enemy and attack, running if a single move will not reach. Defend (for example) is stand still and take the Dodge action. Have a few such generic actions for combat purposes.
5. Undead follow this like an program. The GM decides what they do in any uncertain circumstances. They are essentially run as allies of the players that then necromance can influence.
6. Changing the undeads orders is an action. All individuals of a single type can be given the same order with the same action.
7. Heavy social contract discussions are encouraged with the use of this class. Similar to bards promising not to spend 20 minutes performing for coins and seducing all the townsfolk every time the party goes to town....the necromancer promises not to always being the maximum number of undead to every single dungeon crawl. Sometimes they can be left behind to guard the camp....or the home base...or even the horses tied up outside the dungeon.
8. Everything here is spitballing. Actual balance would come from lots of thought and playtesting.
I'm all for individual undead, not swarms or spirits or area affects. Here at my concessions ...
1. It takes a long time to make an undead. Creating undead is a ritual spell and takes one hour per individual.
2. Choose from two forms of basic undead, skeletons or zombies. Each have a basic template that scales up in power based on the level of spell slot used to create the undead. Skeletons quicker but weaker, zombies slower but stronger. There is design here for other types of undead with balanced tradeoffs.
3. Spell slots used to create an undead cannot be recovered until that undead is destroyed. Then the slot can be regained on a rest as normal. Only slots gained from the necromancer levels qualify for undead creation. The necromancer can have up to PB number of undead created at one time.
4. Undead can be directed with a simple menu of commands. Attack (for example) is move towards the nearest enemy and attack, running if a single move will not reach. Defend (for example) is stand still and take the Dodge action. Have a few such generic actions for combat purposes.
5. Undead follow this like an program. The GM decides what they do in any uncertain circumstances. They are essentially run as allies of the players that then necromance can influence.
6. Changing the undeads orders is an action. All individuals of a single type can be given the same order with the same action.
7. Heavy social contract discussions are encouraged with the use of this class. Similar to bards promising not to spend 20 minutes performing for coins and seducing all the townsfolk every time the party goes to town....the necromancer promises not to always being the maximum number of undead to every single dungeon crawl. Sometimes they can be left behind to guard the camp....or the home base...or even the horses tied up outside the dungeon.
8. Everything here is spitballing. Actual balance would come from lots of thought and playtesting.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Wandering a bit off topic, but could something like this work in Daggerheart or a similar system? Sure, you can hog lots of air time ordering around your skeletal A-Team, but you are giving the GM a huge pile of Fear tokens in the process?
No much more than D&D.
Either your undead minions are horde blob who go right after you like D&D. Basically a Ranger with different domains.
Or worse... your undead minions each have turns, fail a lot, hog spotlight, and generate tons of Fear.
I can't see it coming out that satisfying.
Aldarc
Legend
Guess what? We agree on something.
A lot of Necromancer builds in Diablo and Guild Wars 2 have relatively few pets because AI is unreliable for a lot of players, and most minions tend to be too fragile for harder encounters.
I've never been too into the Horde Necro. I have been more interested in simply spells involving life/healing and death magic, skulls and bones, blood magic, etc. And I think that the desire to be the chartered accountant Necro that has to micromanage a horde of summons has held back the Necromancer's potential, though I also think that having to be a Wizard and/or Cleric subclass instead of a full class has also held back its potential.
FWIW, the Necromancer will be a full class separate from the Wizard in PF2 Remastered.
Remathilis
Legend
Can I say that if you're classes primary feature requires you not use it all the time to be fair to the other players, it's not a good feature. You can't design around the if idea of giving a character an op ability and then making them promise not to use it or use it responsibly.
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