D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[SkidAce]

It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up exploration sometimes.

The player would have to agree to a social contract not to go through all the tactical options of every zombie not abuse having extra chances to do a lot chance option.

not if "in combat only" once you have more than two of them they are treated as a horde/army.
out of combat they carry the box.

Not sure how it makes other people feel, but we have tested it, and we think it great!

Out of combat: carry boxes, dig, guard perimeter, row undead boat, etc, use stat block for undead creature.

In combat: two ghouls? Run as normal. Four skellies, convert to swarm.

In or out (depending on how many encountered): sneaking past their guard line? Stat Block. Made lots of noise and failed to sneak in? Use swarm block. Skellies in mass? Difficult terrain. Angry Swarm? Swarm block.

Grapple on skel versus one player? Stat block. Horde of skellies grappling: Swarm block, one of its attacks is a grapple, other attacks as normal or on grappled creature at advantage.

Etc etc.

Players use these guidelines, and I use these guidelines for the evil necromancer.

Sweet and neat.

 

[Minigiant]

not if "in combat only" once you have more than two of them they are treated as a horde/army.
out of combat they carry the box.

Not sure how it makes other people feel, but we have tested it, and we think it great!

Out of combat: carry boxes, dig, guard perimeter, row undead boat, etc, use stat block for undead creature.

In combat: two ghouls? Run as normal. Four skellies, convert to swarm.

In or out (depending on how many encountered): sneaking past their guard line? Stat Block. Made lots of noise and failed to sneak in? Use swarm block. Skellies in mass? Difficult terrain. Angry Swarm? Swarm block.

Grapple on skel versus one player? Stat block. Horde of skellies grappling: Swarm block, one of its attacks is a grapple, other attacks as normal or on grappled creature at advantage.

Etc etc.

Players use these guidelines, and I use these guidelines for the evil necromancer.

Sweet and neat.

The issue is there has been at least three people in this thread who want to for skeletons to be run at four individual units with full actions.

 

[SkidAce]

The issue is there has been at least three people in this thread who want to for skeletons to be run at four individual units with full actions.

I understand.

My recommendation to them is to look at where to draw the line.

We draw it at 2+ is a swarm block. Maybe their playstyle/table can handle 4+.

I don't think (I might be naive) that anyone wants to run dozens of skeletons with their own stat block.

But whatever works.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

So, straight gamist/balance concerns then? Important, but not my highest priority.

Not everything is about gamist/simulationist. Being considerate of other people's time isn't a balance issue. WOTC not catering to the type of person who wants to do that isn't some gamist design conspiracy.

t's about one player monopolizing the table time because its generally not fun to sit on your ass while the other guy takes 20 turns to your one, clogs up the battlefield, and slows the game down with tracking 20 different hit point totals. The decker minigame in older Shadowrun editions also sucked because the rest of the party zones out while the decker goes on their little hacking adventure. Its OK to design a system to reduce/eliminate pain points.

And that's just in combat! Outside of combat you basically want a bunch of slaves for unpaid labor. Great, now the DM has to figure out how fast skeletons can weave baskets and how much they sell for or whatever else TFG is having them do every second not actively in combat. Because let's be real, the swarm necromancer is almost always played by TFG. It's almost always about what he can get away with, and just serves to make the game more about him. It can be ok in a 1-2 person game, but when other people are waiting to get to the action and the DM has to spend hours figuring out Necro Bob's skeleton factory income, it sucks the fun out of things.

 

[mellored]

I understand.

My recommendation to them is to look at where to draw the line.

We draw it at 2+ is a swarm block. Maybe their playstyle/table can handle 4+.

I don't think (I might be naive) that anyone wants to run dozens of skeletons with their own stat block.

But whatever works.

Just to toss out more ideas.

Limit in combat actions by player actions.

I.e. player uses their bonus action to move a skeleton, action to make it attack, reaction to make an opportunity attacks.
Scaling to commanding 4 at once.

Commanding them takes concentration, but they will just stand there if you loose it.

So you can have 10 in combat, but most of them just mindlessly stand around.

 

[BJK Games]

I don't follow it closely, but I'm pretty sure there's some kind of necromancer class on the way for Pathfinder 2, and if I understand it correctly it avoids managing hordes of minions by making it abstract. Summons are a resource that you spend to perform combat actions.

One of my players is using it in our PF2e game, and it's a great class. The best iteration of a TTRPG necromancer that I've found so far. I can't wait to see the final version since this one is in playtest atm.

 

[Minigiant]

I understand.

My recommendation to them is to look at where to draw the line.

We draw it at 2+ is a swarm block. Maybe their playstyle/table can handle 4+.

I don't think (I might be naive) that anyone wants to run dozens of skeletons with their own stat block.

But whatever works.

There are.

They want the option sometimes.

But "sometimes" is a DM to Player to Allies agreement. Not a base design for purchasable content.

"Sometimes" in the base game has a defined numerical value

 

[Micah Sweet]

You are assuming players RTFM.

And even then MHP puts strict and low limits of how many thralls you get.

Creating a class that is either broken or disruptive and requiring the players to not break or be disruptive won't make it out in the wild.

First if all, what does RTFM mean?

Secondly, MHP explicitly added a sidebar explaining that the breaks they put on minion numbers can be released at the discretion of the DM if desired, and what that might lead to. In other words, they put it in the hands of the table rather than force the rules onto a particular path.

Which is all I'm advocating.

Finally, what is "broken" or "disruptive" is subjective. Neither of us get to decide that for others, and IMO game designers shouldn't try to either. Options and suggestions are our friends.

 

[Muh]

One of my players is using it in our PF2e game, and it's a great class. The best iteration of a TTRPG necromancer that I've found so far. I can't wait to see the final version since this one is in playtest atm.

I tracked down the playtest pdf and it does look very good from a cursory reading!

 

[James Gasik]

First if all, what does RTFM mean?

Secondly, MHP explicitly added a sidebar explaining that the breaks they put on minion numbers can be released at the discretion of the DM if desired, and what that might lead to. In other words, they put it in the hands of the table rather than force the rules onto a particular path.

Which is all I'm advocating.

Finally, what is "broken" or "disruptive" is subjective. Neither of us get to decide that for others, and IMO game designers shouldn't try to either. Options and suggestions are our friends.

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