D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[Micah Sweet]

The issue is there has been at least three people in this thread who want to for skeletons to be run at four individual units with full actions.

Exactly how complicated are the actions skeletons can reasonably take anyway? Heck, there are plenty of versions of D&D that use henchmen and hirelings. Should they be abstracted into a swarm statblock?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Not everything is about gamist/simulationist. Being considerate of other people's time isn't a balance issue. WOTC not catering to the type of person who wants to do that isn't some gamist design conspiracy.

t's about one player monopolizing the table time because its generally not fun to sit on your ass while the other guy takes 20 turns to your one, clogs up the battlefield, and slows the game down with tracking 20 different hit point totals. The decker minigame in older Shadowrun editions also sucked because the rest of the party zones out while the decker goes on their little hacking adventure. Its OK to design a system to reduce/eliminate pain points.

And that's just in combat! Outside of combat you basically want a bunch of slaves for unpaid labor. Great, now the DM has to figure out how fast skeletons can weave baskets and how much they sell for or whatever else TFG is having them do every second not actively in combat. Because let's be real, the swarm necromancer is almost always played by TFG. It's almost always about what he can get away with, and just serves to make the game more about him. It can be ok in a 1-2 person game, but when other people are waiting to get to the action and the DM has to spend hours figuring out Necro Bob's skeleton factory income, it sucks the fun out of things.

I have made it clear that what WotC wants to do is not my concern. The claim was it isn't designable. I disagree.

And everything that gets done in play should give a nod to the goals of play at that table and the social contract. Neither of which are the same across the community.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Read The F* Manual

It is every player and GMs responsibility IMO to make an effort to understand the rules of the game they're playing. Obviously they should receive as help and support in this task as they want to accept, but I think they still need to try.

 

[Minigiant]

Exactly how complicated are the actions skeletons can reasonably take anyway? Heck, there are plenty of versions of D&D that use henchmen and hirelings. Should they be abstracted into a swarm statblock?

It's not complexity

It's

Move Zombie #1
Choose Zombie #1's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Zombie #2
Choose Zombie #2's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Evaluate
Move Zombie #3
Choose Zombie #3's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Xarkon the Ebony
Cast spell
Resolve spell
Move Ghoul 1
Choose Ghoul 1's Action
Resolve Action
Move Ghoul 2
Choose Ghoul 2's Action
Resolve Action
Move Zombie #4
Choose Zombie #4's Attack
Evaluate
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Zombie #5
Choose Zombie #5's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Zombie #6
Choose Zombie #6s Attack
Roll Attack and Damage

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's not complexity

It's

Move Zombie #1
Choose Zombie #1's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Zombie #2
Choose Zombie #2's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Evaluate
Move Zombie #3
Choose Zombie #3's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Xarkon the Ebony
Cast spell
Resolve spell
Move Ghoul 1
Choose Ghoul 1's Action
Resolve Action
Move Ghoul 2
Choose Ghoul 2's Action
Resolve Action
Move Zombie #4
Choose Zombie #4's Attack
Evaluate
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Zombie #5
Choose Zombie #5's Attack
Roll Attack and Damage
Move Zombie #6
Choose Zombie #6s Attack
Roll Attack and Damage

Ok. While I don't personally see the problem (at least at that level of action), if you do there are plenty of techniques that can be used to handle controlling multiple creatures more efficiently. You know who uses them all the time? The GM.

The information is out there.

 

[Minigiant]

Ok. While I don't personally see the problem (at least at that level of action), if you do there are plenty of techniques that can be used to handle controlling multiple creatures more efficiently. You know who uses them all the time? The GM.

The information is out there.

D&D is based on the assumption only one person is playing the GM role.

And even then GM's tend to abstract things at this level.

The entire conversation is that a player wants to play the game the way the GM plays without using the special skills that GM to speed up their time.

Basically play like a "bad" GM.

 

[Micah Sweet]

D&D is based on the assumption only one person is playing the GM role.

And even then GM's tend to abstract things at this level.

The entire conversation is that a player wants to play the game the way the GM plays without using the special skills that GM to speed up their time.

Basically play like a "bad" GM.

I don't recall anyone identifying the whole conversation in that manner. If you want to control a group of creatures in the way I'm describing, it's a more complicated class that requires more attention. It's not a simple proposition, and that IMO should be ok. Just make that clear in the book.

 

[Steampunkette]

Undead Army Necromancer
At 20th level, your mastery over undeath allows you to unleash an army the likes of which is rarely seen. As an action, sacrifice a 7th level or higher spell slot and apply the following effects.

All terrain within 500ft of you on a horizontal plane is considered difficult terrain and is filled to the brim with zombies, skeletons, ghouls, ghosts, and other undead creatures. While these creatures do not make individual attacks, any creature or object in the area must make a Dexterity saving throw or take 4d6 necrotic damage as they are assailed by the undead in the area. Creatures you designate, invisible creatures, and undead are unaffected by this ability and treat the area as normal terrain.

Each square within the area can be attacked or otherwise damaged. Once a 5ft space has taken 20 points of damage, total, from any source, it is no longer considered to be a part of the area. As if a Sorcerer had used careful spell on an AoE effect to select unaffected spaces.

This effect lasts for up to 6 hours, and ends early if more than 100 squares are cleared, you reach 0hp, or if you choose to dismiss the effect.

 

[ECMO3]

Exactly how complicated are the actions skeletons can reasonably take anyway?

RAW each of the Skeletons can take one of the following actions on its turn:
Shortsword*
Shortbow*
Attack (with a Weapon or Unarmed Strike)*
Dash
Disengage
Dodge
Help
Hide
Influence
Magic
Ready
Search
Study
Utilize

When you get down to it that is a pretty complex list of options end-to-end with slightly shy of 270 million different combinations for 4 skeletons.

* Note RAW the "Shortbow" and "Shortsword" actions are actions unique to skeletons and found in their statblock, while the "Attack" action is an action afforded any creature.

 

[Sorinth]

Haven't read the whole thread but in an argument that boils down to individually controllable summons vs a single swarm type of summon perhaps a best of both worlds approach would be to allow individually controllable summons but turn around and give the Necromancer the ability to create a swarm with abilities that make using the swarm the better option 95% of the time.