D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[mellored]

Full. Class. It's entirely doable, and has in fact been done more than once.

IMO, id your doing a full class, make it a generic Summoner class. You're going to need nearly all the same mechanics if your summoning undead horde or elemental swarm.

 

[DavyGreenwind]

I haven't played this class yet, but all the features this class gets seem way to strong for the class to remain a full caster. Part of the redesign for a better balanced Necromancer class should be to divorce it from the Wizard class. This one does not do that so I feel the power level will just be off the charts.

The spell list is much smaller. And it's spells known, like Bard. MHP does a lot of math to make their classes balanced. (Though with the variant rule, the class can be pretty strong).

 

[Micah Sweet]

Only if you have tunnel vision.

Combat Zombie, Worker Zombie, Talking Zombie, and Mook Zombie were different Zombies.

Even in video games, they are different spells.

So if you want to create Mook Zombies in order to grapple the charging orc and make 12 grapple attempts a turn... you are being disruptive. Choose the Combat Zombie to do combat stuff well.

Video games are the kings of " this mechanic does this specific thing and no more". They're the ones with tunnel vision here. This doesn't help from my perspective. Why would any given walking corpse be incapable of more than one thing? It could be that way, but it doesn't have to be. Why can't I have a zombie carry a box for me, and then drop it to devour my enemies tasty brains? What in the setting makes that not make sense? That's what I care about.

 

[Micah Sweet]

IMO, id your doing a full class, make it a generic Summoner class. You're going to need nearly all the same mechanics if your summoning undead horde or elemental swarm.

I could be down with that, as an option.

 

[Minigiant]

Video games are the kings of " this mechanic does this specific thing and no more". They're the ones with tunnel vision here. This doesn't help from my perspective. Why would any given walking corpse be incapable of more than one thing? It could be that way, but it doesn't have to be. Why can't I have a zombie carry a box for me, and then drop it to devour my enemies tasty brains? What in the setting makes that not make sense? That's what I care about.

It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up exploration sometimes.

The player would have to agree to a social contract not to go through all the tactical options of every zombie not abuse having extra chances to do a lot chance option.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up combat
It screws up exploration sometimes.

The player would have to agree to a social contract not to go through all the tactical options of every zombie not abuse having extra chances to do a lot chance option.

So, straight gamist/balance concerns then? Important, but not my highest priority.

 

[Minigiant]

So, straight gamist/balance concerns then? Important, but not my highest priority.

More social.

If Johnny's turn takes 25 minutes each time because he is controlling 1 wizard, 10 zombies, 3 ghouls, and a wight... it can be balanced....

He is just taking up 4-5 times the times as his tablemates' and is dragging down the game

You can tell him to run them all at once but that's exactly what people say they don't want.

 

[Remathilis]

More social.

If Johnny's turn takes 25 minutes each time because he is controlling 1 wizard, 10 zombies, 3 ghouls, and a wight... it can be balanced....

He is just taking up 4-5 times the times as his tablemates' and is dragging down the game

You can tell him to run them all at once but that's exactly what people say they don't want.

It only works if the skeletons have limited actions (attack), the PCs only have one action per round (attack, cast one spell, etc) and the monsters so likewise. But in a game with bonus actions, reactions, weapon masteries, legendary actions, and such, it falls apart. The only way you get a Necromancer with a horde to work well is to simplify everything back to B/X levels of PC/NPC action options.

 

[Micah Sweet]

More social.

If Johnny's turn takes 25 minutes each time because he is controlling 1 wizard, 10 zombies, 3 ghouls, and a wight... it can be balanced....

He is just taking up 4-5 times the times as his tablemates' and is dragging down the game

You can tell him to run them all at once but that's exactly what people say they don't want.

I guess my issue is the ironclad assumption some seem to have that these issues are unavoidable without severe mechanical restrictions. Why can't you just put the rules out there are provide advice and, if needed, warnings about possible issues? As I've said,Mage Hand Press did this with their Necromancer class and I've seen two of them work just fine in game.

 

[Minigiant]

I guess my issue is the ironclad assumption some seem to have that these issues are unavoidable without severe mechanical restrictions. Why can't you just put the rules out there are provide advice and, if needed, warnings about possible issues? As I've said,Mage Hand Press did this with their Necromancer class and I've seen two of them work just fine in game.

You are assuming players RTFM.

And even then MHP puts strict and low limits of how many thralls you get.

Creating a class that is either broken or disruptive and requiring the players to not break or be disruptive won't make it out in the wild.