Omniscience and Impotence in RPG Legal Systems

[nopantsyet]

It would be possible to get around this, at least to an extent, by having magic items usable by mundanes so you wouldn't have to trust the word of that shifty-eyed cleric. Say, a table that casts divination once or twice/day and displays the answer via image or automatic writing, so the answer can be verified.

Brad

Which is cost-prohibitive, meaning only very significant (monetarily, socially, etc.) crimes would be eligible for such investigation.

But even so, you still have judicial shortfall. The evidence is hearsay because the investigator cannot prove what was revealed by the divination. I suppose testimony could be given in a zone of truth, but that would raise the cost of prosecution even higher.

Which means that divination is only useful when investigating very high-value crimes, and when the investigation and repercussion are to be executed by the same individual. A highly-skilled, highly trusted individual. Think fantasy James Bond.

Now that provides some interesting opportunities, especially considering such private agents would not always be operating strictly in the interests of the law, so much as in the interests of their employers, who may or may not represent the law. Send one of these guys after the PCs for unknowingly bumping off the godson of a powerful and corrupt figure and you've got some times ahead.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

The Grackle made a good point, and one I'd like to emphasize- if your players are running characters who actually give a damn about the characters around them, and the players are actually interested enough in the game to care, you generally don't have a problem with flagrant abuse of the law.

Run a campaign where duty and honor are important. Have the players flesh out backgrounds with families, lieges, friends, and mentors, and keep them in close contact with home for at least the first several levels. Don't let them accumulate ridiculous amounts of treasure or magic too quickly. Get them enwrapped in the plot of the world, the political events of the day, and the moral struggles of the land. Do this for a few levels, and it sets a continuing precedent.

"Without god, anything is permitted." -Fyodor Dostoyevsky

While I wouldn't go as far as Dostoyevsky, I'd say this is the key to keeping your PC's from turning into sociopaths- they have to have roots. A character who cares about what his liege, his father, or his beloved thinks is less likely to burn down villages, rob the baronial coffers, or generally cause mayhem... this was a lesson I learned the hard way. One too many games filled with Chaotic Neutral "Lone Wanderer" types destroying village after village showed me where I was going wrong...

 

[shilsen]

It would be possible to get around this, at least to an extent, by having magic items usable by mundanes so you wouldn't have to trust the word of that shifty-eyed cleric. Say, a table that casts divination once or twice/day and displays the answer via image or automatic writing, so the answer can be verified.

Brad

True, but only if the DM allows custom magic item creation. My point was based on the spells and items in the PHB and DMG.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Of the propositions above I mostly like Private Revenge and Curses. I always try to remember that the system of law we have today (and even that isn't flawless) rests on a thousand years of trial and error. When a new problem arises attorney's backtrack into history to find something similar and try to judge accordingly. This has not always been the modus.

Basically, I would suggest that most punishments passed onto PCs should be deviced to further the plot or add hooks to the game. Perhaps exile is a good way of handling unruly adventurers? The PCs will need to get back to civilization and once they've done so they are regarded as having atoned, by the public. Perhaps PCs will go freely if they know there is a reward in serving the penance?

Another way is simply to have the players put down "Arch-enemy: Chief Orwung of The Frost Barbarians" on their character sheets. In my experience players will seek to rid themselves of such written words. -A curse in a way, but without ability penalties or other restraints. Perhaps they will seek to destroy Orwung or they might try to appease him. What ever the result the game won't suffer.

 

[The Grackle]

I can see an ecclisiastic court relying on a lot of divinations, b/c of course clerics trust their fellow clerics. Or if a city was controlled by a church, same thing.

For a secular church, I'd think there's be less divination. It depends on people's attitudes toward magic in your campaign, but I'd think wizards would rarely become civil servants. Either b/c they're not trusted or they just wouldn't want to.

 

[The Grackle]

But even so, you still have judicial shortfall. The evidence is hearsay because the investigator cannot prove what was revealed by the divination. I suppose testimony could be given in a zone of truth, but that would raise the cost of prosecution even higher.

Well, It wouldn't be hearsay- it be more like being a witness. A witness through magical perceptions who could lie like any witness could, but still a witness.

Zone of Truth would probably be a lot more useful, but some people would always make their saves...

 

[Evilhalfling]

Hmmm -
two thoughts - If society really needs the truth then an inquisition method can be effective without the torture - ie take accused, strip them of all possesions and magical auras, cast repeated dooms, then start with detect thoughts, zone of truth and possibly detect lie -
all cast by a cleric of justice, The cleric then gives confession/explination to judge who sentances the accused. Assuming this duty is performed by a 5th lvl cleric it can only be done once per day.

Prisons are terrible investments in a system with so much magical hijinks avalible. Immedate judgements including fines, branding and two levels of capital punishment - the first returns the body to friends of family, the second burns the corpse. Branding/amputation might also be situable punishments for those who cant pay.

Magical and Medevial Society has tables of court sentances, and a description of the fractioned nature of justice: royal, church, town, and manor courts all have overlapping domains. The common thread - justice is slow.

 

[The Grackle]

Having defined the problem, the challenge becomes:

How to create a potent, non-omniscient legal system, with sanctions that the players care about enough to interact with, rather than resenting the gamemaster.

I've seen this done precisely once, in a campaign with which we are all I'm sure familiar (Eversink, anyone?). What I'm interested in sussing out is what the characteristics of effective RPG legal systems are.

One thing to keep in mind is that people had very differrent ideas about Law and Justice before the modern era. I'm sure someone else around here can give you lots of examples, but one that always sticks out in my mind is the idea of Judicial Combat. There was even one case of a murdered man's dog who was allowed to fight the suspected murderer. The dog won and the murderer confessed on his death bed!
(And I'm sure there are modern laws which are even more ridiculous.)

Basically a trial, sentencing, and punishment should be an interesting game (or three) instead of a just a quick hand-slap from the DM (it should seem like the NPCs are doing it not the DM). There should be a trial, imprisoning, witnessess, insane tests, combat, ordeals, closing statements, tortures, humiliations, astrology, ladies, tigers- anything to make it seem it real. Even if the PCs are on trial it still makes for a good time.

Hopefully, once it's over they will avoid breaking the law just to avoid the hassle.

 

[jmucchiello]

My problem is that I have two players in my game that would rather stage an armed insurrection than pay a fine.

My players are the opposit. If I provided fines for criminal behavior, they'd just add in the fine as a cost of doing business.
P1: "Hey, it'll only cost us 120,000 gp if we burn down this tavern and everyone in it!"
P2: "I've got 65,000, how about the rest of you?"

 

[Silveras]

A few thoughts on the subject

1) Crime and Punishment, from Atlas Games, actually presents systems for handling... uh... crimes and punishments ... in a 3.x RPG.

2) The investigative police force is a *relatively* new invention. Up until the lat 19th century, the "Watch" was pretty much focused on "watching" -- for fires, and for disturbances. The terms "peace officer" and "disturbing the peace" have little to do with investigative criminology; they are about just keeping things in order. In other words, unless a crime is being actively committed right now, most of the Watch is not going to be expected to do anything about it.

3) Social alignment is a factor. Lawful societies will expect everyone to "pitch in", so in a town full of Lawful people, expect people to help the watch by revealing hiding places, etc. In a Chaotic society, it can be more "you're on your own lookout", and people mind their own business.

4) If crimes become disruptive to society (ie., cost enough from the people with influence), *then* you can expect to find hired squads of professionals hunting down the perpetrators.

5) Societies with access to sophisticated magic will also develop laws about how that magic can be used. For example, It can be a crime to cast any Enchantment without a writ of some kind. I don't mean selling your services as an exterminator; I mean the fear of someone using charm person to manipulate business will promote the creation of a law making it illegal to use ANY behavior-modifying spells without some authority's approval. Much like the existence of the telephone and the internet have prompted concerns about privacy in the real world, the existence of Divination spells will likely cause societies to place restrictions on their use, as well.