Omniscience and Impotence in RPG Legal Systems

Silveras said:
For example, It can be a crime to cast any Enchantment without a writ of some kind.
You mean like Aid? Obviously you don't but I seriously think more people would have hang ups about evocations, transmutations and necromantic spells. They generally have obvious and potentially destructive effects. Thus if writs became involved, they would be needed for all spellcasting, not just certain schools of magic.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Silveras said:
5) Societies with access to sophisticated magic will also develop laws about how that magic can be used. For example, It can be a crime to cast any Enchantment without a writ of some kind. I don't mean selling your services as an exterminator; I mean the fear of someone using charm person to manipulate business will promote the creation of a law making it illegal to use ANY behavior-modifying spells without some authority's approval. Much like the existence of the telephone and the internet have prompted concerns about privacy in the real world, the existence of Divination spells will likely cause societies to place restrictions on their use, as well.

Business? What about governments? Those are much more dangerous on the whole, aren't they?

Which is exactly why I have a Guild (not one, really, but a blob of regional and municipal Wizards Guilds, with a universal magically enforced Code and common origin holding them together) for Wizards (IMO, the biggest problem in making laws on magic).

The Code includes committing evil acts, using enchantment to influence minds, raising the dead and interfering with souls, as well as accepting coin for magic above third level, and for fighting an army--a big no-no.
Divinations are performed before an apprentice is allowed to learn magic, that gives an idea of what they might do, and, upon approval, they are taught wizardry, after being enspelled with the Code spell that.
If the Code is broken, all wizards within 100 miles know the pertinent details of the crime and it's perpetrator. Then another section of the Guild is called on, the Hunters.

Anyone who assaults a wizard, steals from the Guild(they provide components and sell alchemical items also), etc. is prosecuted by the Guild and the Guild alone--and found by the Hunters.

Wizards don't fight in wars either--unless its a common threat to everyone, like a goblinoid or demon or Underdark invasion or something, then they won't be involved. But the more usual sort of war, between governments is off-limits.
 

I think videogames are strangely enlightening in this regard. ;)

In Final Fantasy Tactics Advance, there was a law system built into the gameplay and plot. The laws were things forbidding certian abilities or skills or powers, and they changed daily (for instance, one day the law could be "no swords". The day after that, it could be "no staves". In a week, it could be "no fire magic"). They would also have rewarded abilities or skills, that were also changed daily (when the law is "no fire magic," you could get a reward for using ice magic).

If a judge saw you using a recommended ability, you would get a reward in the form of a point that allowed you to execute a super-powerful attack. If a judge saw you using a forbidden ability, you would get penalized in some way.

That's all well and good, but the way the game implemented it could break verisimilitude for a lot of D&D games. Basically, the laws were concieved of by a spoiled prince, and were enforced by his family and super-powerful spiritual figures known as Judges.

But where it could apply for a D&D game is in what happened when you get punished. There are two basic categories of punishment (to fit the two basic categories of laws): red and yellow. Yellow is kind of like a fine or tax. By themselves, they don't do much, but the more you get tacked onto your name, the worse the punishments get. You can get rid of 'em by spending some time in prison (or, in a D&D game, perhaps paying a stiff fine), but if you get enough, you'll be forced into prison, have items confiscated, develop a bad reputation, etc. Imagine a scofflaw character who has ignored the laws of the Judges suddenly getting his precious magic cloak vaporized from off his form, or be suddenly unable to Hide or Move Silently with any confidence, or suffering a Dex penalty for a week. Reds, of course, simply impose this right away, rather than waiting for a certain point of acquiring. And in the game, you could come accross a scofflaw magician who makes magic items that get rid of the laws, or create new ones.

Of course, the kingdoms and lands in many D&D games are pretty lawless places -- monsters roam the countryside and people congregate for safety in villages defended by powerful adventurers or nobility or other montsers. Applying the laws like FFTA did would require a powerful organization of connected entities who were able to enforce their will at all times in all places. In FFTA, supernatural Judges materialized out of nowhehre and enforced the rigorous law. Perhaps in D&D, the Inevitables could fill such a roll, or it could actually give you a way to use the Lawful Good outsiders. There also needs to be a system of coming up with the seemingly random laws -- the spoiled prince with great power is a good motif, but something more generic and universal might include a divination tradition that actually affects everyday life. We all know horoscopes and fortune cookies have fun lucky numbers and do's and do nots -- what if that was enforced by some supernatural code? Today, it is very unlucky for the world in general if a Saggittarius uses magic that transcends dimensions, so it is supernaturally outlawed, and if a Saggittarius does use teleport, perhaps he looses 4 points of Wisdom until he atones (such as by spending time in a Purgatory, or working for the celestials, or paying a fine, or agreeing to a geas to not use magic for one year, etc). But it would be very lucky for that person to use electricity magic, so if he casts lightning bolt, he is rewarded with extra damage, +2 caster level, something like that.

So let's recap the things that FFTA has taught me about law & order in the game:
  1. The law needs to be more powerful than the PC's. This is hard to do with mundane sources of law and order...normal people can easily get beaten up by the local constublary, but a couple of 3rd level fighters ain't nothin' to a 10th level PC, especially 4 of them. However, if the source of law and order is, say, the Celestial Hebodomad...that's a little more potent. The suggested above is that the concept of luck, and auspicious action should govern the divine laws of the land -- your fortune cookie is *law* for you, not just esoteric advice. Of course, this creates a bit of a reality of the world: devils probably love to try and manipulate the laws for their own luck, demons probably flaunt the law and destroy those who would impose it (making heavy use of anti-law magic), archons are steadfast defenders who try to make the law the best for all, and eladrin find themselves using anti-law magic to enjoy a freedom. This is also in the enforcers of the law: a town guard likely won't be much of a threat to a mobile group of PC's. An Inevitable that can appear wherever and whenever a law is broken because a deity of order can tell it to....that's a bit more potent. This sort of forces a bit less simulationist/realism in the game, if you want the PC's to be subject to the law. Otherwise, they're no more subject to it than a red wyrm, or a beholder, or any other monster of their level...if they obey the law, it is by choice, not by force, and you can never *make* them listen to it. It might not be very heroic, but PC's in general are under no mandate to be heroic if it's going to mean spending some time in the slammer.
  2. The law needs to affect PC's actions, but not all the time. A law not to wear pink on a Sunday is a nice arbitrary way of getting someone punished, but it's not something PC's need to be concerned about. A law against fire magic, or against hitting someone with a particular kind of weapon, or against harming a particular creature, or against using a particular feat...those are going to make them sit up and take notice, and really differentiate the Lawful (those who make sacrifices to obey the laws) from the Chaotic (those who make sacrifices to violate the laws, such as by willingly paying fines, or surrendering items, just to break the law) from the Neutral (those who do what they do, and if it happens to be lawful or not, so be it). But at the same time, the law should be fluid and flexible and predictable. Someone with Knowledge (the law), or Knowledge (divination) should be able to predict the luck and unluck for the next few days, and there should be ways around the law (such as with Anti-Law Magic, or specific items, or the ability to pay off the entities enforcing the law, or whatever). If someone in a certain territory can never use heavy armor without taking a -4 Con, that's not going to be a fun adventure for the character. But if he has a choice between waiting a day for the law to change, and saving the town from the dragon *RIGHT NOW*, that's an interesting choice. Or if the law now forbids armor, but the laws later forbid his favorite weapons, or stop the wizard from being able to use his full powers, or don't allow the cleric to heal, or whatever...then it turns into managing rescources and a tactical exercise. In addition, the law can be used to the PC's advantage -- think of challenging the red dragon on a day in which fire magic is outlawed, and ice magic is rewarded, stopping it from using most of it's powerful fire spells, and giving your ice spells an extra kick. The important thing is that the monsters are as subject to these laws as the PC's, because of the Powerful Entity that controls the law and order. Of course, enemies should have access to the ability to negate and alter laws, too...that dragon might have a special ribbon that allows him to ignore the laws without penalty, or even change the laws to hurt the PC's...and people could attack the PC's on days in which the laws are unfavorable to them, or favorable to the enemy...nothing hurts more than a monk ambush on a day when all weapons are forbidden...are you going to accept the -4 Strength for using your blade, or are you going to rely on your spellcasters to help you escape until the law changes?
  3. The penalties should not stop the game, and should be a choice, not a force. There should be rewards, as well as penalties. There should always be PC choice involved in whether or not to violate the law, generally speaking. Just like there is choice between good and evil, there should be a choice to use acid-based magic or not. There should be minor ways around all laws: a law forbidding physical attacks won't stop you from summoning a monster to attack (who cares if it breaks the law, it's gone in a minute), or using a magic spell to attack. A law forbidding casting healing magic shouldn't affect potions. Some laws may hurt more than others, but there shouldn't be a reason a character *has* to use something that's forbidden. Perhaps it won't be optimal, but that's the arrangement of rescources -- the law wasn't hidden and it wasn't obscured, and there are things like anti-law magic to get around them. And if the PC does choose to take the penalty rather than obey the law or weasel around it somehow, it shouldn't destroy the party instantly. Taking away a magic item (or simply the offending item, such as if you hit someone with a forbidden weapon) for a specified period of time, agreeing to geas to limit certain powers for a time, ability penalties, fines...these things happen when you break big laws, but weaker laws will only cause you to do that if you accumulate a lot of them...hitting a goblin might get you a warning today, and using ice magic might have gotten you a warning yesterday, but if you get five warnings, you're transformed into a goblin for one week. These warnings should be able to be lessened somehow, taking more minor penalties (minor fines, periods of enslavement, perhaps a lower max hp for a day or two) and then being erased from the record. In addition, there should be rewards for using certain abilities....a day that says hitting goblins is unlucky may say that hitting hobgoblins is lucky, so you get a +1 bonus to attack and damage against hobgoblins that day. Or maybe hitting a hobgoblin will erase one warning you've recieved.
  4. Laws have to make some sense, but they don't have to make much sense. When the law and order become something greater than what the Baron decrees, and is enforced by something more than 3rd-level warriors with perhaps a 8th level lieutennant in the big city, there needs to be some pseudo-mythological explanation for them. FFTA uses a fitful prince with God-like powers. A D&D campaign could use that, or could use a Deity of Law, who announces rules through revelations during a priests' morning prayer to her. Or, the system above, the "fortune cookie" idea, where there are lucky and unlucky actions you can take because of the alignment of the stars and planets. All of them fit pretty snugly in a D&D melieu, and serve as an explanation. But more than that, they should be a real part of the world. If the laws are this powerful, and this enforced (to the point where you could simply change form because of something you've done before), it pays to know what they are, and priestly announcing from minarets, or use of the Knowledge (divination) skill, or make it some other skill, such as a Sense Motive check; or make it a 0-level spell, divine fortune, that allows you to know. The more esoteric and powerful the source of power, the more the PC's will buy strange laws, and the more interesting ways around those laws will be...if the God of Law is also a God of Music, she's never likely to forbid using Bardic Music, for instance. Or if the God of Law is persuing agents of the Chaos Lord, you can bet that the laws will be directed specifically against his agents and powers...the moment he recruits minotaurs, smacking minotaurs will be lucky, but using mazemagic will be unlucky.To keep the verisimiltude of the laws, you need to make sure that knowing them and tracking them are a part of the PC's everyday lives. After all, as arbitrary as they may seem, they exist to keep some sort of twisted order....well, maybe.
  5. The law needs a system. Finally, as a DM, you need to know the parameters of these supernatural laws. They can fill a lot of roles, but it needs to be predictable. Does the law change once a day? week? month? Can there be two laws at once? Are the laws based on locality? Do they change if you move into the lands of the Chaos Lord? Or are they universal, because we're all under the same stars and planets? This system can change over the course of the game, but there should always be *a* system. A logic behind it. Do you want the laws to play a prominent role? Is fighting the law going to be a theme, or is this just a reality that everyone must deal with? Are you comfortable with this level of lack of realism?
 

I think Legality and crimes in a fanatasy world is very interesting and though many times breaks down.

What u end up seeing often in books and modules etc. Is that with all the magic running around they try and create a modern legal type system that exists independent of magic (no divinations etc.).

I can see why they might want to model things this way (so the story can be more of a classic Legal case in a fantasty world).

But i think it tends to break down in versimilitude.

1. I think most legal systems (assuming magic is prevalent as in DnD genre) would have to adopt magic into the legal system. WHile the point made earlier that it is non-transferable is valid, the other poster who mentioned that they would be like a witness is also valid. Casters would have to be trusted to some level or spells developed that allowed for only truth telling or divinations that included additional people as 'viewers'. This adoption would occur because of simple efficiency. Magic can get at answers better than not using magic

2. The other BIG problem if magic was not used in the legal system, is that if magic is used to commit a crime, witnesses and other evidence could easily become pointless. Illusions, shapechange, alter self etc. MEans that whoever u saw commit a crime could easily not be that person. Magic would have to be developed to counter this (or many people escape the system, i guess would be the other choice).

THis subject probably has a lot of argumentation to it both ways. But is very interesting in how it is handled. Havent actually figured it out for my games (specifically Rolemaster right now cuz that is what i am Gming) but interested in others ideas for this.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
I think videogames are strangely enlightening in this regard. ;)

Yay! Final Fantasy Tactics!!!



Anyway...
A problem w/this is everyone interprets how D&D magic affects society in very different ways (as I've read on numerous other threads). Do normal people have direct experience w/it? how much? Do churches freely give out magic or always charge? etc.
So a good way to do it is come up w/ lots of options/generalities on how it could work, OR come up w/a specific setting w/ its specific laws that fit into its specific society. Anything in the middle is going to be murky.

Another point is that magic DID have a very strong influence in the crimes committed and means of determining guilt in mideval thought. There were lots of trials involving demons, possession, necromancy, shape-changers, witches, etc. It's just that now we don't believe in that stuff, so it sounds crazy.
 

The Grackle said:
Well, your typical PCs are wandering adventurers w/little to no connection to the town they're in (at least at first). If you're capable of killing 90% of the population (at once) and you have millions of dollars of stuff in your backpack, of course you're going to be a little sociopathic. I sure would be.

That statement just made me fall out of my chair laughing! :D
 

Just would like to give my endorsement for Crime & Punishment, which was written by Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron. It covers just about every question given on this thread so far.

Some other thoughts...

The weregild for murder is easy to figure...its at least the price of a Raise Dead or Ressurrection spell. Murder is a different thing in D&D than it is in our world. It's like placing someone in a continuous coma who then can be revived by a spell.

Even in a D&D world where magic is prevalent having NPC spellcasters administer punishments or diviniations is expensive. Using the price of NPC spellcastings listed in the Player's Handbook put the price out of reach for the typical citizen or even the typical town. But a world with a god of justice could have his clergy and followers working on bringing justice to all of the wronged and they may offer their services for free or a for a regular government salary. If they work for free, they may demand that the people that they helped will help them deal with other injustices, such as The Shadow did in the movie of the same name. So, if the PCs failed to clear their own name, the justice church can save the day for them, but then demand that they help them bring justice in a matter which they haven't been able to do themselves.

Other ideas for punishments: Baneful Polymorph is like a death sentance but without the execution. So would a Feeblemind. This is an option for societies who don't want to kill the guilty. There could be a permanent compultion spell available that would compel the guilty to never do that kind of crime again and to do the restitutional remedy that the judge assigned him. The book & movie A Clockwork Orange deals with this possibility. A higher level spell could transform the guilty's mind to a new alignment. There also was an episode of Star Trek: Deep Space 9 where Miles O'Brian was charged guilty of a crime and was sentanced to be mentally modified so that he has the experience of spending many years in prison added to his mind. There could be a D&D spell created that does that also. How about a spell that makes the guilty ethereal or incorporeal for a lengthy period of time?

But in your typical D&D game world magical justice costs and it will probably cost you, whether you are the plaintif or defendant. You will have to pay for spellcasters to precide over your case. The more money you pay, the more powerful the spells that can be used in your case.
 
Last edited:

Whimsical said:
The weregild for murder is easy to figure...its at least the price of a Raise Dead or Ressurrection spell. Murder is a different thing in D&D than it is in our world. It's like placing someone in a continuous coma who then can be revived by a spell.

There could be a permanent compultion spell available that would compel the guilty to never do that kind of crime again and to do the restitutional remedy that the judge assigned him.

Maybe it's a different thing in your world, but the rarity of 9th level clerics and the fact that the MATERIAL component is DIAMONDS means to me that only heroes/villains get brought back to life.

It's called Geas/Quest, but a few levels higher.
 

A lot of really good stuff here.

My favorite points:

1. Investment. Once players are invested in a community and care about reputation and standing, living within the law and interacting with it follow. This is rational: for an outsider, the laws are likely not to be crafted either with their involvement or consent, and will rarely take their desires into account.

But for an insider, the law represents a tool as well as a threat.

2. Quis custodiet custodes? ("Who watches the watchmen?") Unless you have a society where you can tell which clerics are evil just by seeing who can still cast spells from good gods (blech), you are just never going to know whether the diviners themselves are corrupted.

I see a plot involving a court diviner who sells his testimony to the highest bidder, and implicates the party in murder.

3. Trial by combat. I had forgotten about this -- in fact I wrote a prestige class called Judicial Champion, whose combat prowess was enhanced (or weakened) by the righteousness (or lack thereof) of his cause.

best,

Carpe
 

This doesn't work for all places, but it can also be effective to have justice systems that aren't really terribly interested in justice. It can be a lot of fun to deal with a corrupt court and law enforcement system, trying to manipulate it to get free. One of the cities in my campaign world is mostly LE, and when the PCs ran afoul of the law there, they found that the court was basically set up as a source of money for the city. Both parties have to pay for the court's time, and if there is any doubt in the case, it is decided by which party can provide the most value to the city, to make up for the crimes that they might or might not be guilty of. If the weight of the evidence is on one side or the other, that side has to provide less value, but both sides have to pay if they want to be supported by the law. This value might come as a straight cash payment, work or completion of some task for the city, or entering into the arena to act as entertainment for the citizens.
 

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top