D&D General On simulating things: what, why, and how?

Oofta

Legend
My take on all of this is simple. Nobody can tell me what I think simulation is. Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Of course we're still waiting for someone
I don't think that you can show that D&D is a simulation by showing that its rules produce results that are consistent with its rules!

The question is, what are those rules simulating? What are they a model of?

But what does this mean? Upthread, it was suggested that a simulation means the rules dictate an outcome without regard to what would be the most fun or the best story. But action movie logic is entirely about fun and story! So here you seem to be mixing oil and water.


The simulation here seems to consist in the GM narrating fiction to the players. What is that simulating? Not the PCs' cognitive processes, presumably!

This is a point I have made many times!
Fantasy worlds have different rules and expectations, so D&D doesn't simulate any one thing when it comes to magic. When it comes to non-magic I want D&D to be a rough simulation. When it comes to magic, I don't really care what you call it to have it be reasonably consistent and logical representation of the type of tropes and expectations we could see in fantasy fiction.

Call it flarfengoogle if you want. I call it a simulation of a plausible reality where magic exists. Many simulations are for events or situations that are only theoretical, I don't make an exception for RPGs.

So we disagree, big whoop. So basically there is no word in the English language we can use to describe aspects of the game that mimic reality or any fictional genre. Emulation doesn't work, simulation doesn't work. It's not purely a game like poker. I find it all meaningless flarfengoogle.
 

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The game advices to set the DC by the difficulty of the task, not by it's relevance to the 'plot'. Granted, it doesn't go into much detail in this and it should. But I generally feel DMG is rather lacking in useful advice department.
OK, that's an objection, but it isn't No True Scottsman... Honestly, the problem here is that the DMG says "set the DC by the difficulty of the task", but what is "difficulty of the task?" There IS NO ACTUAL UNDERLYING WORLD, so there is no cause-and-effect structure to create said difficulty! The difficulty is thus simply a number, which itself now has to be created out of SOMETHING. Since the GM is in complete control of what the fiction is within the world, he's in complete control of the value of this difficulty that sets the DC. So the end result is exactly the same, the GM decides, based on some unstated criteria and in some unstated way, an adjective. He then calls this adjective 'difficulty' and sets a DC according to the 'rule' in the DMG. You point to the rule, without analyzing the entire logical structure, and claim it is a 'simulation', but it isn't, its just a number attached to an adjective that was set through some entirely opaque process that has nothing in particular to do with anything that might be getting 'simulated'. See what I mean?
OK. So what would this sort of mechanic actually look like? What games use such mechanics?
OK, the Space combat system from Classic Traveller has elements of being a simulation. There is some actual attempt to portray weapons and tactics which are analogous to things that reasonably can be extrapolated from known physics and engineering. It is still a game (maybe not a very good one actually, and partly because it is fairly realistic) but there is at least some sort of pretty consistent stuff in there, like the further away you are from the enemy's laser turret, the less probability there is of a hit (IE the angular resolution of his aiming system is a fixed number, but the arc subtended by your vessel at a greater distance is smaller, and evasive maneuvers are proportionately more effective, etc.). It is at least an ATTEMPT to inject some kind of correspondence between realistic things that might actually exist and happen and things that represent them within the game and how they exist and happen.

Now, I agree that, in some trivial sense, falling damage in D&D 'simulates' falling, sure. However I think it is much more driven by the 'falling trope' of dramatic fiction than by an attempt to actually match with physics. Meanwhile, the Traveller space combat system actually AVOIDS the normal tropes of things like space opera where everything is blasters and N-Rays and tractor beams or whatever (queue Star Trek, you can immediately see the difference). I mean, sure you can find a few rare SF books who's space combat might be similar to Traveller's but CLEARLY the thought process started from "what would space combat actually be like?" and the rules grew out of that. Honestly, I think the author probably wasn't very knowledgeable about subjects such as sensors, control system, C3I, etc. and chances are his 'simulation' is pretty bad! Still, its an attempt.

So, as a final point. I can't say whether or not every single thing in every FRPG is or is not a simulation. Nobody can do that, its not a clear line. I really don't think the idea of simulation does much good work in these games though. I think it is MUCH more productive and useful to think about how these things work in terms of producing story logic and necessary structure in terms of orienting participants and giving them indications of what to expect and what inputs will produce what sorts of outcomes. When we build rules structures like the D&D combat system, they map onto story logic, and they orient the players, and the conventions and structure of them allows us to know what is likely to happen and what the different 'moves' we can make will do. When an RPG hews fairly closely to a logical structure that has some correspondences with things we understand in the real world "swords hurt you" then we can also go beyond the board-game-like structure of typical games and into an open-ended mode where the players can suggest moves beyond what the system/fiction already cover. The GM is then expected to respond in a way that is expected and justified, either by an appeal to 'fairness', 'playability', 'genre logic', or a very loose kind of analogizing with real world situations. I think that analogizing is so loose, and shallow, that calling it 'simulation' just doesn't do useful work. As I pointed out with Traveller space combat though, you can find SOMETHING that is a bit 'simulative in nature' here and there, and that means it is hard to be really absolutist.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
My take on all of this is simple. Nobody can tell me what I think simulation is. Like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder.
Oh, sure, you like what you like. 🤷

But this isn't a useful position to take in a discussion of a thing, is it? You've started from the position that it's 1) not discussable as any kind of generally applicable concept, only the trading of personal interests is available; and 2) that you're utterly disinterested in changing any of your opinions. That's a pretty toxic position to enter into a conversation with.
 

Put it this way, if I was going to simulate ACTUAL MELEE COMBAT such as what is depicted in D&D, first I would build a model of forces and such that took into account mass, momentum, etc. in various ways. I'd want it to analogize the generation of kinetic energy by muscular effort, transferred into weapons, and then delivered to targets.

At the process level I think you'd need to evaluate who is acting and who is reacting, somehow, and then consider factors like whether the attacker is being cautious or reckless, and then likewise considering the options and choices of the defender (if any). This would all need to include some sort of perceptual model as well as somehow representing the 'OODA loop' that is each participant's mental process.

I am so far from having a coherent idea of how this would even work that I cannot state how this all would be designed, but it would be VERY different in character from what Gygax proposed, or what most existing FRPGs do now. I mean, probably, the best sort of strategy would simply be to go with a very loose system of intentions and moves, more like what Dungeon World 'combat' is like than being similar to D&D. It might be possible from there to formalize it a little more, introduce position, size, etc. as more definite objective factors, etc.

The thing is, I don't believe any of the above will actually make a terribly interesting game!
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
Mod Note:
Folks, rather than publicly call each other's positions "toxic", how about we disengage from folks with whom we find discussion less-than-constructive. Thanks.
 

OK, that's an objection, but it isn't No True Scottsman... Honestly, the problem here is that the DMG says "set the DC by the difficulty of the task", but what is "difficulty of the task?" There IS NO ACTUAL UNDERLYING WORLD, so there is no cause-and-effect structure to create said difficulty! The difficulty is thus simply a number, which itself now has to be created out of SOMETHING. Since the GM is in complete control of what the fiction is within the world, he's in complete control of the value of this difficulty that sets the DC. So the end result is exactly the same, the GM decides, based on some unstated criteria and in some unstated way, an adjective. He then calls this adjective 'difficulty' and sets a DC according to the 'rule' in the DMG. You point to the rule, without analyzing the entire logical structure, and claim it is a 'simulation', but it isn't, its just a number attached to an adjective that was set through some entirely opaque process that has nothing in particular to do with anything that might be getting 'simulated'. See what I mean?
The GM looks at the game world, and assesses how hard given task is and assigns a DC. This simulates some things being harder to do. Hopefully the GM does this in coherent and predictable manner. Like I said, the books could certainly offer more advice and example on this, to help GMs to maintain consistency.

Like if making chocolate chip cookies has a DC 5 and making macarons has a DC 15, then that simulates the latter being quite a bit harder to successfully make. Further that we add character's baking skill to the roll simulates that some people are better at baking than others. We can critique detail and accuracy of the simulation, but I think it is silly to say that it not a simulation at all!

OK, the Space combat system from Classic Traveller has elements of being a simulation. There is some actual attempt to portray weapons and tactics which are analogous to things that reasonably can be extrapolated from known physics and engineering. It is still a game (maybe not a very good one actually, and partly because it is fairly realistic) but there is at least some sort of pretty consistent stuff in there, like the further away you are from the enemy's laser turret, the less probability there is of a hit (IE the angular resolution of his aiming system is a fixed number, but the arc subtended by your vessel at a greater distance is smaller, and evasive maneuvers are proportionately more effective, etc.). It is at least an ATTEMPT to inject some kind of correspondence between realistic things that might actually exist and happen and things that represent them within the game and how they exist and happen.

Now, I agree that, in some trivial sense, falling damage in D&D 'simulates' falling, sure. However I think it is much more driven by the 'falling trope' of dramatic fiction than by an attempt to actually match with physics. Meanwhile, the Traveller space combat system actually AVOIDS the normal tropes of things like space opera where everything is blasters and N-Rays and tractor beams or whatever (queue Star Trek, you can immediately see the difference). I mean, sure you can find a few rare SF books who's space combat might be similar to Traveller's but CLEARLY the thought process started from "what would space combat actually be like?" and the rules grew out of that. Honestly, I think the author probably wasn't very knowledgeable about subjects such as sensors, control system, C3I, etc. and chances are his 'simulation' is pretty bad! Still, its an attempt.

So, as a final point. I can't say whether or not every single thing in every FRPG is or is not a simulation. Nobody can do that, its not a clear line. I really don't think the idea of simulation does much good work in these games though. I think it is MUCH more productive and useful to think about how these things work in terms of producing story logic and necessary structure in terms of orienting participants and giving them indications of what to expect and what inputs will produce what sorts of outcomes. When we build rules structures like the D&D combat system, they map onto story logic, and they orient the players, and the conventions and structure of them allows us to know what is likely to happen and what the different 'moves' we can make will do. When an RPG hews fairly closely to a logical structure that has some correspondences with things we understand in the real world "swords hurt you" then we can also go beyond the board-game-like structure of typical games and into an open-ended mode where the players can suggest moves beyond what the system/fiction already cover. The GM is then expected to respond in a way that is expected and justified, either by an appeal to 'fairness', 'playability', 'genre logic', or a very loose kind of analogizing with real world situations. I think that analogizing is so loose, and shallow, that calling it 'simulation' just doesn't do useful work. As I pointed out with Traveller space combat though, you can find SOMETHING that is a bit 'simulative in nature' here and there, and that means it is hard to be really absolutist.

I really feel that you're still just quibbling over accuracy and amount of detail. Also there again is mixed in some "fantasy cannot be simulated" flavour; i.e. lack of tractor beams makes something simulationistic.

Like in Traveller space combat, things that are farther away are harder to hit in D&D too. In D&D there are just two range increments, short and long range. How many range increments there needs to be, until this becomes simulation of the feature of the game (and real) word of the distance mattering for ranged weapon accuracy? I don't think that this is meaningful distinction. In both cases there is a clear attempt to model the reality of the game (or real) world via mechanics. The one attempt being more accurate and granular is just a difference of degree, not of kind.
 

The GM looks at the game world, and assesses how hard given task is and assigns a DC. This simulates some things being harder to do. Hopefully the GM does this in coherent and predictable manner. Like I said, the books could certainly offer more advice and example on this, to help GMs to maintain consistency.
What game world? The one that says "Oh, there's a cliff here." There is nothing which constrains any characteristics of this cliff; it is merely an imaginary thing. There's no world with plate tectonics and erosion and etc. that forms cliffs. Instead it is simply something that someone imagined would be there. It could be 30' high, 300' high, 3000' high, or heck its a fantasy world it could be 3 million feet high! It could be made of any sort of rock, or cheese, or demon flesh. Maybe it has overhangs, maybe its wet, maybe its dry, maybe it is sheer, maybe not. Perhaps there are paths going up, or not. ALL of this is entirely up to the GM and probably most of it wasn't specified when some line was drawn on an imaginary map and the words "The Great Cliff" were written on it. At most there's some general 2 sentence description. At SOME POINT there's some level, some decision point, where the GM or some writer or other decided "well, this cliff better be a DC 20 climb check because <story logic reason here>" or at best because he didn't have his coffee that morning and felt mean!

And no, the books CANNOT provide any more meaningful advice here! There is nothing to provide! Its up to the lady describing the cliff, 100% up to her and nobody and nothing else! All they could do is discuss the possible story uses of cliffs and examples of how they have been used in games past.
Like if making chocolate chip cookies has a DC 5 and making macarons has a DC 15, then that simulates the latter being quite a bit harder to successfully make. Further that we add character's baking skill to the roll simulates that some people are better at baking than others. We can critique detail and accuracy of the simulation, but I think it is silly to say that it not a simulation at all!
It depicts that one is harder than the other. I don't think that is meaningfully a 'simulation', we don't know why one is harder, and we have no justification for why my guy with a total +3 to his cooking skill can make one on an 8+ (65%) and the other on an 18+ (15%). It isn't somehow related to anything in the real world, it is just some numbers that were pulled out of thin air and used to depict that one is harder than the other. Nor are these DCs meaningful in any way to model some question like "would it be easier to make macaroons or leap out the window and land without injuring myself?"
I really feel that you're still just quibbling over accuracy and amount of detail. Also there again is mixed in some "fantasy cannot be simulated" flavour; i.e. lack of tractor beams makes something simulationistic.

Like in Traveller space combat, things that are farther away are harder to hit in D&D too. In D&D there are just two range increments, short and long range. How many range increments there needs to be, until this becomes simulation of the feature of the game (and real) word of the distance mattering for ranged weapon accuracy? I don't think that this is meaningful distinction. In both cases there is a clear attempt to model the reality of the game (or real) world via mechanics. The one attempt being more accurate and granular is just a difference of degree, not of kind.
Fantasy cannot be simulated! I mean, I agree with you that being 100% absolutist about it in the sense of "you cannot simulate falling in D&D" is kinda extreme, if D&D has a decent enough model of damage and whatnot, maybe we can, and nobody can logically draw some exact lines here. Still, tractor beams CERTAINLY cannot be simulated, no more than fireballs can, they are both utterly fantastic constructs of imagination not subject to ANY laws, as are cliff faces and such things. I am sort of able to simulate falling in a pit because once I've decided there's a 20' deep pit with a hard stone floor I've PRETTY MUCH figured out all the relevant factors.

So, going back to the cliff example above. If we have once (say in some previous adventure) already nailed down all the factors, and we now we say to ourselves "how hard would this baby actually be to climb" at least we're in a situation similar to the pit. Maybe someone can then write some little mini-game that simulates that situation. I don't think that means that the general workings of the 5e skill system has any character of simulation to it.
 

@AbdulAlhazred

OK. We are now at "imaginary things cannot be simulated," and "simulation must match reality (near) perfectly." I obviously don't agree, and frankly I find such definition in the context of games about imaginary things utterly useless. But I guess at this point it is just the best to agree to disagree. 🤷 I will however continue to use the word the way I deem sensible.
 

Oofta

Legend
@AbdulAlhazred

OK. We are now at "imaginary things cannot be simulated," and "simulation must match reality (near) perfectly." I obviously don't agree, and frankly I find such definition in the context of games about imaginary things utterly useless. But I guess at this point it is just the best to agree to disagree. 🤷 I will however continue to use the word the way I deem sensible.
Some people just want to define what the word simulation means for everyone else. That if any aspect of D&D does not follow that strict definition, than no aspect of D&D can be considered simulation.

Nobody has come up with a better alternative, so I will continue to consider D&D a necessarily crude simulation of a magical world.
 

@AbdulAlhazred

OK. We are now at "imaginary things cannot be simulated," and "simulation must match reality (near) perfectly." I obviously don't agree, and frankly I find such definition in the context of games about imaginary things utterly useless. But I guess at this point it is just the best to agree to disagree. 🤷 I will however continue to use the word the way I deem sensible.
I don't know about 'nearly' or '(near) perfectly'. It is more like we must be able to actually construct some sort of model that says "why is this the outcome of our simulation?" One problem with all these examples and whatnot is we don't even know what the real world factors are. You talk about macaroons and oatmeal cookies, but what are the factors that make one or the other harder or easier to bake? If I have ZERO of those factors incorporated in my 'model' of baking then I can't even say if 5 and 15 are proper DCs on this given day, given these available ingredients, etc. Even if the 'model' happens to be plausibly correct in one instance its like saying a broken clock has the right time twice per day...
 

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