On the marketing of 4E

[Fifth Element]

If you want to say that chatting with creatures from the faerie realm isn't a focus of current design, say that. But don't tell me what D&D is about.

The point of the context provided is that he wasn't saying that. He was providing the perspective of the detractors. He also provided the perspective of the supporters. That's the point here: taking the quote out of context, it seems he's telling you how you should play D&D. Looking at the context, it's clear he's not saying that.

 

[billd91]

The point of the context provided is that he wasn't saying that. He was providing the perspective of the detractors. He also provided the perspective of the supporters. That's the point here: taking the quote out of context, it seems he's telling you how you should play D&D. Looking at the context, it's clear he's not saying that.

He also says that he thinks they make some good points. Sounds like an implication that that criticism of using the fey is a good point.

But keep in mind the context I was putting this in too - the meme around here about what D&D is about. It comes up again and again. Is it any wonder that people get sensitive to it or bristle at it? Sure, there are a lot of people who focus on that style of play and it's easy to publish adventures focusing on it, but it's just a subset of what D&D has been about.

 

[AllisterH]

He also says that he thinks they make some good points. Sounds like an implication that that criticism of using the fey is a good point.

But keep in mind the context I was putting this in too - the meme around here about what D&D is about. It comes up again and again. Is it any wonder that people get sensitive to it or bristle at it? Sure, there are a lot of people who focus on that style of play and it's easy to publish adventures focusing on it, but it's just a subset of what D&D has been about.

Um, Billd91, why are you though ALSO ignoring the fact that he points out that the propoents of the FEY have strong reasons to want to use them as presented in myth (where there's practically no combat but just social interaction).

He's saying BOTH sides are right...I mean, how can you get anymore non-confrontational than that?

 

[Imaro]

The point of the context provided is that he wasn't saying that. He was providing the perspective of the detractors. He also provided the perspective of the supporters. That's the point here: taking the quote out of context, it seems he's telling you how you should play D&D. Looking at the context, it's clear he's not saying that.

Um, Billd91, why are you though ALSO ignoring the fact that he points out that the propoents of the FEY have strong reasons to want to use them as presented in myth (where there's practically no combat but just social interaction).

He's saying BOTH sides are right...I mean, how can you get anymore non-confrontational than that?

Uhm, I'm gonna have to disagree with both of you on this one... Let's look at that quote again...

"Fey have always been a part of D&D that has both proponents and detractors. The detractors have some good points, in my estimation -- cute pixies and leprechauns aren't fun opponents, and good-aligned creatures are hard to use in combat-heavy adventures. Yes, people recognise pixies from fairy rales. But D&D is emphatically not the game of fairy-tale fantasy. D&D is a game about slaying horrible monsters, not a game about traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people.

On the positive side, though, there is something very appealing about the legends of a faerie land, a world that's an imperfect--or a more perfect--mirror of our own. There's something genuinely frightening about the idea that a traveler in dark woods at night might disappear from the world entirely and end up in a place where the fundamental rules have changed. Magic is more real there, beauty is more beautiful and ugliness more ugly, and even time flow differently in the fey realm. Books like Susannah Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell depict that world in vivid language."


(Note the bolded portion)He clearly asserts that D&D is a particular thing that does not include... " traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people."


The problem is that he never says anything positive as far as fey and D&D go, he only makes a positive reference to their place in literature not the actual game of D&D though he clearly makes a statement about what is and isn't D&D in the paragraph that is negative about the fey.

 

[Fifth Element]

The problem is that he never says anything positive as far as fey and D&D go, he only makes a positive reference to their place in literature not the actual game of D&D though he clearly makes a statement about what is and isn't D&D in the paragraph that is negative about the fey.

Uhm, I think you're putting a pretty fine line on it. He didn't explicitly connect the positive comments about the fey with D&D, but considering he was writing about D&D, I think the connection is implicit.

From a designer POV, as noted above, D&D is traditionally and primarily a game as he describes. It can be used for more than that, of course, but its focus has never been that and will likely never be that.

To examine your posts in as much detail, you claim that he "clearly asserts that D&D is a particular thing that does not include.." [bold added], which is not true. He states D&D is not about that, not that it can't include that. "About" here referring to the game's primary focus.

So he's saying D&D is not focused on traipsing through fairy rings, which I think is a fair statement. Then he says traipsing through fairy rings can be awesome, which is also a fair statement.

 

[avin]

I mean, is making fun of Planescape names really "trashing" the system?

Yes, it is. They are mockering something just because they don't like it. Haven't seen they making fun of "4E wow elementals" or concepts I find bizarrely fun nonsense such as Elemental Chaos.

They make fun of Planescape because they want people think PS was dumb and the new cosmology is perfect.

By the way, am I the only 4E edition DM defending the point of bad 4E marketing? Where's the 3E guys defending 4E as a good marketing and 4E players thinking just like me? That way look like most people is just chosing the side they like more and finding arguments to defend it

The "fairy" example is another aspect I'd like to point. 4E has a clear philosofy that D&D is almost a game where HEROES face EVIL MONSTERS. That probably keep a lot of 3E players away.

 

[Greg K]

(Note the bolded portion)He clearly asserts that D&D is a particular thing that does not include... " traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people."

he clearly makes a statement about what is and isn't D&D in the paragraph that is negative about the fey.

I have tried responding to three posts with no luck. I hope this one goes through.

Imaro,
Exactly. Whether he is agreeing with detratctors point or stating his own opinion in that statment, he asserts that D&D is about killing monsters and not about " traipsing off through fairy rings and interacting with the little people." As a designer,by that statement, he is, by implication, telling several groups that I know and all those participants in a poll here that don't have combat every session and/or whose games encompass more than killing monsters that they are playing wrong

 

[Scribble]

I've always found this to be a case of: If you're looking for the insult in a statement, you will find it, no matter if it was intended or not.

 

[DaveMage]

Again, this gets to the heart of the issue. It's been shown a couple of times that the "trashing" gets taken out of context sometimes and blown out of proportion.

I mean, is making fun of Planescape names really "trashing" the system?

In marketing, perception is reality. All that matters is how your readers (viewers) perceive your message/product.

If the message is perceived by a significant number of people as insulting, it's insulting - regardless of intent. Annoying a significant portion of your potential buyers with marketing they perceive to be insulting is not usually a good practice.

But, hey, if 4E is as successful as WotC is claiming, maybe those that were annoyed by it is not a significant population. *shrug*

 

[Imaro]

Uhm, I think you're putting a pretty fine line on it. He didn't explicitly connect the positive comments about the fey with D&D, but considering he was writing about D&D, I think the connection is implicit.

From a designer POV, as noted above, D&D is traditionally and primarily a game as he describes. It can be used for more than that, of course, but its focus has never been that and will likely never be that.

To examine your posts in as much detail, you claim that he "clearly asserts that D&D is a particular thing that does not include.." [bold added], which is not true. He states D&D is not about that, not that it can't include that. "About" here referring to the game's primary focus.

So he's saying D&D is not focused on traipsing through fairy rings, which I think is a fair statement. Then he says traipsing through fairy rings can be awesome, which is also a fair statement.

Again I have to disagree, here is the definition of about...

a⋅bout

–preposition
  /əˈbaʊt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-bout]
1. of; concerning; in regard to: instructions about the work; a book about the Civil War.
2. connected or associated with: There was an air of mystery about him.
3. near; close to: a man about my height; about six o'clock.
4. in or somewhere near: He is about the house.
5. on every side of; around: the railing about the excavation.
6. on or near (one's person): They lost all they had about them.
7. so as to be of use to: Keep your wits about you.
8. on the verge or point of (usually fol. by an infinitive): about to leave.
9. here or there; in or on: to wander about the old castle.
10. concerned with; engaged in doing: Tell me what it's about. Bring me the other book while you're about it.

I don't see ... "focused on" anywhere in the definitions, I have to assume he either meant "connected or associated with..." or perhaps "concerned with..." either way D&D has always had Fey connected with it, associated with it, and has been a game concerned with it (Elves).

Honestly it seems you are creating your own meaning for the word "about".