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On the State of Digital Aids for D+D/D20/OGL
- Thread starter iwarrior-poet
- Start date
iwarrior-poet
Explorer
Firzair said:
With all of those generators...you sure must crank out a lot of wattage!!! (lame attempt at a joke...someone coughs in the backgroundl...
)Ilium said:This is especially amusing if you ARE a programmer. You see, in some languages Exceptions are what you get when your program breaks. So having a whole system based on exceptions is pretty questionable!
Actually that is caused from a programmer not handling a situation the program encountered and has nothing to do with an Exception Based System.
As quite a few people who develop d20 applications have stated, one of the biggest problems with d20 is the fact that at any given moment a publisher can release material that will detail rules which break the current rule. So instead of trying to handle every last rule why not just assume that all rules are breakable.
In truth I think WotC is only part of the problem, the industry itself takes the rest of the credit. People assume WotC should make things work better for software and yet no other publisher does it either? If you go by numbers, you see very few people actually getting involved in software projects. The excuse you are not a programmer does not hold water because there are tons of other jobs relating to software development that you could lend assistance. I will be honest, most coders make the worst testers especially when concerning something they have developed themselves. We know how to work with the program. This is why I put Evolution into user hands months ago, even before remotely usable. These users have guided the interface, functionality and even the test tools to make sure calculations are correct.
So if you think you deserve better software, then do something about it.. get involved in a project. Doesn't have to be mine, can be PCGen or Redblade but the point is simple.. do something to help move software forward and in productive direction.
iwarrior-poet
Explorer
That is a nice, positive twist---but frankly I don't have the time. I am ready to pay good $$$ for a good program. In most markets (in fact any I can think of) this is sufficient. I shouldn't have to participate more than that.
I dropped close to $200 in CMP datasets---though I now question whether it was worth it.
I dropped close to $200 in CMP datasets---though I now question whether it was worth it.
iwarrior-poet said:
<soapbox>
I don't mean to antagonize here but I don't know that you should feel so entitled to anything software related. I can sympathize with the CMP datasets - something I also use - but frankly I use them so their worth isn't a question for me - the disappointing issues for me is the interface I have to use them in.. but I digress..
The reality is that you just resolved your position above - you want a finished product. None that exist meet your needs and now you are complaining when those trying to create them are encouraging you to give input and aid the process of development.
No, you may not have the time or inclination to help develop raw software. Fine. But then don't lambast the developers for failing.
Give up, accept the market situation and move on... or instead turn your complaints into a useful, positive discussion of what you would like to see and encourage others to add to that list - help set the expectations, help mold the development indirectly by contributing constructive ideas and feedback rather than throwing up your hands and crying to the world that the sky is falling.
Start simply by stating what you expect from software - classify it, prioritize it and then see if you can, help someone realize it.
You don't have to be a programmer to be a software architect. You don't have to be an artist to create a good GUI. You do have to help those with the skills come to an understanding of what is wanted, needed and accepted to accomplish those tasks though.
I guess that is my approach to the whole "State of Software" discussion. I can bitch all day but if I don't actually contribute to the discussion of why I am bitching and what I'm bitching about then I'm just spouting vile words and effectively undercutting the people I want to fix the problems I have with the software.
</soapbox>
iwarrior-poet
Explorer
OK...LrdApoc said:
I believe I was pretty clear about what I would like. Something with an easy/fun UI, something that is comprehensive (includes CharGen, Campaign Management, Mapping, Encounter Management).
I began this thread trying to rattle CONSUMERS, with the hopes that if enough consumers start voicing their opinions/needs/hopes it will have a positive impact on the market and move it out of the current quagmire---unfortunately it seems that a lot of developer types are the only ones who read these boards---and they are getting defensive.
I am not one to give up and accept situations when I feel that some encouragement/criticism can help move the process forward.
iwarrior-poet said:
I misread or misunderstood your intent then. However I find that most consumers don;t care.. and as this is buried in the Software discussion rather than in the main thread (which is probably where a discussion like this should be since it is not about using the tools) then you will not find much more than developers or people like that answering. I'd guess 90% or more of the users never even make it this deep in the forum.
soulcatcher
First Post
iwarrior-poet said:
Well, so long as you don't need new books, this is less of an issue then you might think. Before CMPs support contract ends, we should be at a permanently supportable data definition, that will be either still used in pcgen for it's supported future, or will offer a convertor.
your existing datasets should be more ore less permanently usable in PCGen, so long as you keep them up to date with CMP until their support contract ends.
iwarrior-poet said:
I think that's a challenge in this area, because it is a small niche and a complex problem. It is therefore difficult to spread out the development expense (time) across a small user base and make any money in the process. I can buy software for many of the engineering challenges I encounter at work, but those start at $5K and some can run upwards of $50K for an application to do what I need. I don't think that's reasonable. I believe this is why you have encountered the lack of 'good' software.
iwarrior-poet said:
I have to say, I empathize with LrdApoc's frustration. In my case, I would like to be taking notes in order to help the software you are lamenting develop... however, it's a challenge, given the lack of detail you provide... Specifically, you know what you mean by 'good' instantiations of these functions, but I have enough development experience to know that you have not communicated your definition of 'good' or things like 'Campaign Management' to me.
So - assuming I was interested in trying to achieve your requirements, here is a sample of the questions I would be asking to you:
For CharGen: Does good mean SRD only? d20? Do you want CharGen for all of the non-WOTC sources? How much rules enforcement do you want in the generator? Does fun involve things like an animated die when rolling takes place (is that an eye-candy statement)? Do you want to be able to customize the output sheet (if printed)? How should it handle rule changes/conflicts (e.g. if a Class is defined as providing a new ability by an extra book)?
Define Campaign Management: Does this just mean storing notes? When you make references in the notes, do you require that those link (like a Wiki?) Should you be able to reorganize the notes (e.g. mind-mapping)? How does this link to the mapping software and CharGen when NPCs are involved? Should part of the campaign data be viewable by players (requiring a security system?), so that they can annotate maps and the general storyline? How do you want to be able to extract this information? Should it be free form information, formatted PDF, etc.? Is this for use during the run or reference information?
For Mapping: Do you want just a plain mapping program (walls/doors) or do you require furniture and color? How much modification of the map do you want to do? Is this build from scratch or random generation? Do you want vector mapping (like playing with shapes in powerpoint) or pixel mapping (like playing in Photoshop)? What do you want to map: Star Systems (3D)? Worlds? Countries? Cities? Castles? Buildings? Dungeons? Caverns? If a program performs random generation, should be it built to conform to physical reality (the building won't fall down if you put furniture on the second floor)? Do you want randomization by geography (northern climes require fireplaces at given intervals and you end up with very limited and repeated building designs in the pre-oil, pre-electricity era)? Do you want generation for different time eras? What about different cultures?
(I could go on for pages here... because I developed RPG-MapGen [see Sourceforge]. I admit it does have a few warts to it - the main one being it only does dungeons. The second being the generation algorithm suffers from a known performance bottleneck, which means it takes a few seconds to make any given map. I know the solution, I've just haven't been spending time on it.)
iwarrior-poet said:
... or are just listening.
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