D&D 5E Once More, Into The LTH Breach

Pallidore

Explorer
I've read all the threads here on Leomund's Tiny Hut, plus all the ones I could find in internet-land. I share the frequent displeasure with 5E's rendition (and "clarifications") of LTH, and I'm not crazy about Level Up's fix of it. However, I also don't think any version has really been both balanced AND stayed consistent with force effects.

Assumptions and Justifications:

Force barriers should consistently be that, barriers, with the (permeable) exceptions minimized so as to reduce and largely eliminate having to remember what can and cannot get through (and how) in either direction. However, the strengths of those barriers can and should vary to the power level of the corresponding spell. Tiny Hut, because it’s bottom of the rung (well, aside from Shield), should be consistent with how new players conceive of a force field, but neither a complete one (no floor and not into the ethereal), nor a strong one (can be brought down).

Tiny Hut, as a third level spell, should keep its theme and intent of being a quick and expedient shelter from the elements, but should be appropriately re-designed to diminish appeal for potential abuse. With that, suitable facets from previous editions should also be incorporated. Given also that it is a ritual with a presently close-to-zero resource cost, a slightly valuable material component should be added, as well as restrict the number of ritual uses per day. This may make it somewhat less of an automatic and perhaps a little more of “the ranger thinks it’s going to rain; can we get the hut, wiz?” Hopefully there will also be less chance of the spell contributing to “15-minute adventuring days.” This latter is so serious a consideration, one could envision the material component being 25 gp or more instead (in Level Up, the material component is 200 gp—probably took high levels into account—so it’s not clear what the “sweet spot” is, especially given that Level Up’s version is rather porous).

The hut should be protective, but far from impregnable. At the same time, many, perhaps even most, creatures encountering it are not going to automatically try to bash it down, dig under it, etc. If you can’t see (it’s been less than clear about the other senses) much about it, what would be the motivation?

The caster should be able to leave it to attend to nearby matters (including hygiene) outside the hut, as 8 hours is not a short period.

Although normal conditions inside will PROBABLY be comfortable, warm, and dry, there is no guarantee, as ground snow, groundwater, geothermic heat, elevation, angle, etc. could change interior conditions, perhaps considerably. The wizard or bard might want the druid or ranger's (or at least someone with the Outlander background's) advice before deciding on where to cast it...


Alright, below is a draft rendition. I am actually REQUESTING the members of the community to maul it, poke holes in it, tell all the problems with it, etc., so I can improve on it or at least further clarify my thinking. One of my (wizard) players is awaiting my decision on what Tiny Hut is going to look like in the campaign-world...

Tiny Hut
3rd-level evocation (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Self (10-foot-radius hemisphere)
Components: V, S, M (small, crystal bead with a golden “L” overlaid on it, worth 10 gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 8 hours

A 10-foot-radius immobile dome of force springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. Whatever floor or ground there is below the dome is without force. The spell ends if you travel more than 60 feet from its center point.

No furnishings are created by the spell. Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the dome with you. The spell fails on casting if there is an obstruction that the DM determines would significantly hinder its full dome shape, or if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures. Creatures within the dome when you cast this spell can move through it freely, but objects may do so only if attended by one of those creatures. All other creatures and objects are barred from passing through it. Attacks, spells, and other magical effects can’t extend through the dome, be cast through it, or, if even a single part of the creature remains in the dome, be conducted out of it.

The hut provides protection against the elements—such as rain, snow, dust, and sandstorms—and is immune to those. The hut also withstands any wind of less than hurricane force, but a hurricane (75+ mph wind speed) or greater force destroys it. The hut otherwise has an AC of 9 and 50 total hp vs. any attacks that would seek to penetrate it or harm it, but is immune to necrotic, psychic, or poison damage. Hit point damage from a single attack that equals or exceeds the remaining hit points of the hut destroys the hut and ends the spell (any excess damage from that attack is lost). If something that is not a weather element, creature, or object, and incapable of inflicting physical damage on the hut (e.g., gas or smoke), comes in contact with it, the hut uses your choice of INT or CHA save vs. DC 12 to attempt to keep it out. Creatures first noticing and then encountering the dome at closer range make DC 12 Perception checks to detect smells or sounds from within.

As long as occupants inside the hut do not do anything that might alter it, or ground/floor conditions do not affect it, the temperature inside the hut is 70° F, with average humidity, if the exterior temperature is between 0° and 100°. An exterior temperature below 0° or above 100° lowers or raises the interior temperature on a 1-degree-for-1 basis.

Until the spell ends, you can command the interior to become dimly lit or dark. The dome is opaque from the outside, of any color you choose, but it is transparent from the inside. The hut does not extend into the Ethereal Plane.

This spell can be ritually cast by you only once per 24-hour period.
 

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So I'm new to this debate. What's considered broken about the 5e version of the spell? Sure it is cheeseable, but there are ways foes can get around it should they need to, and the fact that it takes a full minute to cast bars it from being protection during an ongoing combat.

I understand the goals behind your rewrite but I feel I can't add much. For my tastes, you version is so achingly more complex for no real payoff in terms of enjoyable gameplay. As soon as you start having to develop susbsystems for temperature variance, I went cross-eyed. If you feel the simpler version just protects too much from the elements, the much more elegant solution is to make it a 4th or even 5th lvl spell.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
Its of but i see no real reason for the once per 24 hours restriction but then I have no issue with it as is. That being said, I consider it dispellable. Spell effects cannot get through but they can't get through a Globe of Invulnerability either but it can be dispelled. I would also rule that disintegrate does for it also.
So I do not see the problem with it.
 

I've been thinking that perhaps the only tweak necessary for Tiny Hut is to rule that the spell ends if any creature or object that was inside when the spell was cast leaves the dome. That will still leave it as a very useful shelter when resting, but eliminates it's use as Leomund's Tiny Bunker in combat.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Way less of a headache to simply ban it.

If for some reason it absolutely has to stay in the game, remove the ritual tag, give it a consumed on cast component (say something in the 50-100 gp range), bump the casting time to 10 minutes, and make it impassable in either direction. No more bunker with cheese spam cast every single day.
 

Quickleaf

Legend
Your approach is a give and take – taking away "invulnerability" but giving potential resistance to breath weapon / poison gas attacks.

Personally, if I ever run a game with LTH in it again, I'd rather just house rule it as a mystical environmental barrier to stay dry & comfy during inclement weather, and that's it. No force magic mentioned.
 

Oofta

Legend
I simply rule that the hut has no floor and you cannot attack anything outside the hut from inside. It's never been an issue, even without my house rules I've never seen it abused in AL. I read some of these stories and it's almost always "Stupid robotic monsters attack ineffectively while we range attack them to death." or "We get a long rest and the enemy does nothing because they haven't been triggered."

If you try setting up a hut in my campaign (even before I established my house rule) it was generally a bad idea. Had a group that was in an area controlled by hobgoblins do it and unfortunately a patrol found them. They were able to take one of the enemy out, but the others retreated once they realized what was going on and retreated. The hobgoblins (being intelligent and military minded) returned walking behind a makeshift moveable barricade, with the second rank holding bundles of sticks that had been been soaked in oil. Idea was that if the group stayed in the hut they would have effectively buried the hut in these bundles and leave a lit lantern on top. Hut goes away, everything collapses, fire erupts. The group decided to not wait that long.

There are many, many ways of dealing with these things. If the enemy is intelligent they may not know specifically what spell was cast (although many would), but that doesn't mean they couldn't reasonably figure out a counter.
 

If something that is not a weather element, creature, or object, and incapable of inflicting physical damage on the hut (e.g., gas or smoke), comes in contact with it, the hut uses your choice of INT or CHA save vs. DC 12 to attempt to keep it out.
Such as? I don't get when this rule would ever come into play. DC12 is pretty low, and is it the caster that makes te save?
exterior temperature is between 0° and 100°
This range is pretty off-center and not very tolerant of hot conditions while it is very tolerant of cold conditions. Human prefered temps are what, 60-85F? And typical inhabited ranges are 40-100F? I would suggest a range closer to 40-100F. But not sure it really matters to much.
 

Pallidore

Explorer
What's considered broken about the 5e version of the spell?

As soon as you start having to develop subsystems for temperature variance,
I won't rehash all of the many drawbacks cited about the spell, but just to name a few: Ritual casting reduces it to zero resource expenditure, especially as there is no material component cost; occupants are virtually invulnerable, can't be seen (yet can see out), can fire missiles out, etc.; occupants (other than the caster) can leave and return repeatedly, making it an invulnerable sally point; it can be cast as a blocking spell in both offensive and defensive layouts.

Most of the temperature variance verbiage is from the previous versions of the spell.
Its of but i see no real reason for the once per 24 hours restriction but then I have no issue with it as is. That being said, I consider it dispellable. Spell effects cannot get through but they can't get through a Globe of Invulnerability either but it can be dispelled. I would also rule that disintegrate does for it also.
So I do not see the problem with it.
The once per 24 hours was only if it was cast as a ritual.

LTH has always been able to be dispelled.
I've been thinking that perhaps the only tweak necessary for Tiny Hut is to rule that the spell ends if any creature or object that was inside when the spell was cast leaves the dome. That will still leave it as a very useful shelter when resting, but eliminates it's use as Leomund's Tiny Bunker in combat.
Being able to leave to take care of hygiene (bless the person who never needs to get up at night!) was, I believe, the intent of being able to leave the dome.
Way less of a headache to simply ban it.

If for some reason it absolutely has to stay in the game, remove the ritual tag, give it a consumed on cast component (say something in the 50-100 gp range), bump the casting time to 10 minutes, and make it impassable in either direction. No more bunker with cheese spam cast every single day.
Perhaps. I believe the ritual tag was added so that it WOULD get cast, as otherwise, choosing to spend a 3rd level spell slot on it instead of fireball or something similar is what WASN'T happening.
Your approach is a give and take – taking away "invulnerability" but giving potential resistance to breath weapon / poison gas attacks.

Personally, if I ever run a game with LTH in it again, I'd rather just house rule it as a mystical environmental barrier to stay dry & comfy during inclement weather, and that's it. No force magic mentioned.
True enough. I looked at Cube of Force and Folding Boat and no sweet spot was jumping out.

You've given me an idea, which I'll post here in a bit.
I simply rule that the hut has no floor and you cannot attack anything outside the hut from inside. It's never been an issue, even without my house rules I've never seen it abused in AL. I read some of these stories and it's almost always "Stupid robotic monsters attack ineffectively while we range attack them to death." or "We get a long rest and the enemy does nothing because they haven't been triggered."

If you try setting up a hut in my campaign (even before I established my house rule) it was generally a bad idea. Had a group that was in an area controlled by hobgoblins do it and unfortunately a patrol found them. They were able to take one of the enemy out, but the others retreated once they realized what was going on and retreated. The hobgoblins (being intelligent and military minded) returned walking behind a makeshift moveable barricade, with the second rank holding bundles of sticks that had been been soaked in oil. Idea was that if the group stayed in the hut they would have effectively buried the hut in these bundles and leave a lit lantern on top. Hut goes away, everything collapses, fire erupts. The group decided to not wait that long.

There are many, many ways of dealing with these things. If the enemy is intelligent they may not know specifically what spell was cast (although many would), but that doesn't mean they couldn't reasonably figure out a counter.
I agree that in many cases, things can be dealt with. But there's cheese things too.
Such as? I don't get when this rule would ever come into play. DC12 is pretty low, and is it the caster that makes te save?

This range is pretty off-center and not very tolerant of hot conditions while it is very tolerant of cold conditions. Human prefered temps are what, 60-85F? And typical inhabited ranges are 40-100F? I would suggest a range closer to 40-100F. But not sure it really matters to much.
I was referring to nearly incorporeal things like smoke and gas. The hut would make it using the caster's save.

The range is straight out of previous version(s) of the spell.
 


Pallidore

Explorer
So, Quickleaf has spurred a thought in me that maybe this should just be a wooden hut, as a lot of cheese then just goes away. Bards and wizards, more comfort-seekers perhaps than most other classes, are thus quite appropriate for this spell. If so, would the below be on track?

Tiny Hut
3rd-level conjuration (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (finger-sized, expertly carved, miniature wooden hut, worth 1 gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 8 hours

As long as you are standing on a solid surface, an 8-to-10-foot-high, 20-foot-by-20-foot normal wooden hut springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The hut’s walls, floor, and sloped roof are 6-inches thick. The hut is windowless, and has a 2-inch thick, 3-foot wide, 7-foot-high no-lock door on a wall you choose (you can’t change it once chosen). The spell ends if you travel more than 60 feet from the center of the hut.

No furnishings are created by the spell. Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the hut with you. The spell fails on casting if there is an obstruction that the DM determines would significantly hinder its manifestation, or if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures.

At the end of 8 hours, the hut, or what remains if it has been damaged, vanishes. The spell can be ritually cast by you only once per 24-hour period.
 


Vaalingrade

Legend
I just accept that I can't drop random encounters on the party when they're sleeping and build interesting encounters they do want to interact with instead.
 


So I'm new to this debate. What's considered broken about the 5e version of the spell? Sure it is cheeseable, but there are ways foes can get around it should they need to, and the fact that it takes a full minute to cast bars it from being protection during an ongoing combat.
There are a few edge cases where the spell can be used in combat, usually by using a scroll. If you can drop one in combat, it's actually pretty awesome, but it's pretty hard to do.

The big complaint is that it does what it's supposed to do: greatly reduce the threat of a random encounter during a long rest. If you have such an encounter with an enemy, you can use the hut as a bunker to attack with almost no chance of retaliation. Because of this, I've found most DMs simply disperse with overnight random encounters when LTH comes into play. If used in hostile territory, the enemy will simply wait for the spell to end, then attack the party with overwhelming force (multiple times I've seen the party worse off after a long rest because of this). I assume that those who complain find these results detrimental to their play style, which is their real issue. IMO the only "fix" necessary for them would be to just remove the ritual tag completely.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
There are a few edge cases where the spell can be used in combat, usually by using a scroll. If you can drop one in combat, it's actually pretty awesome, but it's pretty hard to do.

The big complaint is that it does what it's supposed to do: greatly reduce the threat of a random encounter during a long rest. If you have such an encounter with an enemy, you can use the hut as a bunker to attack with almost no chance of retaliation. Because of this, I've found most DMs simply disperse with overnight random encounters when LTH comes into play. If used in hostile territory, the enemy will simply wait for the spell to end, then attack the party with overwhelming force (multiple times I've seen the party worse off after a long rest because of this). I assume that those who complain find these results detrimental to their play style, which is their real issue. IMO the only "fix" necessary for them would be to just remove the ritual tag completely.
While you’re right, if this is why DMs don’t like LTH, they haven’t thought through the mechanics of the game very well. All hp and resources recharge with the completion of a long rest, which takes 4-8 hours depending on race. The DMG has wandering monster checks every hour, at worst, or every 4, 8, or 12 hours. With a 15% chance. The first wandering monster fight will basically be a drawn-out delay of resting. Only if there’s a second wandering monster fight before the rest is complete will the resource drain of the first actually matter, so the only lasting consequence is death or consumable item use. There’s a 2.25% chance of two wandering monsters in a row, whatever the timeframe.
 


Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So, Quickleaf has spurred a thought in me that maybe this should just be a wooden hut, as a lot of cheese then just goes away. Bards and wizards, more comfort-seekers perhaps than most other classes, are thus quite appropriate for this spell. If so, would the below be on track?

Tiny Hut
3rd-level conjuration (ritual)

Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Self
Components: V, S, M (finger-sized, expertly carved, miniature wooden hut, worth 1 gp, which the spell consumes)
Duration: 8 hours

As long as you are standing on a solid surface, an 8-to-10-foot-high, 20-foot-by-20-foot normal wooden hut springs into existence around and above you and remains stationary for the duration. The hut’s walls, floor, and sloped roof are 6-inches thick. The hut is windowless, and has a 2-inch thick, 3-foot wide, 7-foot-high no-lock door on a wall you choose (you can’t change it once chosen). The spell ends if you travel more than 60 feet from the center of the hut.

No furnishings are created by the spell. Nine creatures of Medium size or smaller can fit inside the hut with you. The spell fails on casting if there is an obstruction that the DM determines would significantly hinder its manifestation, or if its area includes a larger creature or more than nine creatures.

At the end of 8 hours, the hut, or what remains if it has been damaged, vanishes. The spell can be ritually cast by you only once per 24-hour period.
Other than the M component having a cost, which I'd just change to being a few toothpicks or small sticks of wood, the idea behind this is really good!

I might tweak the size down just a bit - 20x20 is bigger than a typical log cabin - and maybe cut it to caster-plus-six can fit. The only other change I think I'd make would be to put one small window in each wall, so those inside can look out if they want.

Also, your write-up doesn't make any mention of whether the hut is Dispel-able once cast (I think it should be, and that it would radiate faint magic to anyone checking for such). Even if the non-dispellability is intentional it should be noted as such to avoid confusion.
 

Pallidore

Explorer
Other than the M component having a cost, which I'd just change to being a few toothpicks or small sticks of wood, the idea behind this is really good!

I might tweak the size down just a bit - 20x20 is bigger than a typical log cabin - and maybe cut it to caster-plus-six can fit. The only other change I think I'd make would be to put one small window in each wall, so those inside can look out if they want.

Also, your write-up doesn't make any mention of whether the hut is Dispel-able once cast (I think it should be, and that it would radiate faint magic to anyone checking for such). Even if the non-dispellability is intentional it should be noted as such to avoid confusion.
Thank you Lanefan. Since I kept the ritual tag, I put in a small material component cost, so that there would be SOME consideration of resource expenditure. Also, my thoughts were still a bit that instead of being an automatic thing Tiny Hut might be held in reserve for when a bad rainstorm, snowstorm, sandstorm, dust storm, etc. was in the offing.

I kept the size to the approximate dimensions of the present Leomund's. I think the idea is not that 9 plus the caster should be in it (unless there's some odd or emergency situation), but that 6 people could have just a bit of room so they aren't right on top of each other.

Windows in a pseudo-medieval setting often present problems, so I left them out. No windows also helps with better protection against the elements. And the adventurers will still probably need to have an outside watch.

You may be right, it might not hurt to make it able to be dispelled.
 

MarkB

Legend
Yeah, personally I like the idea of discarding the force effect and making it an actual hut, camouflaged to blend into the terrain - basically a game-hunter's hide. Keep the magically-comfortable interior, give the walls hit points commensurate with wooden construction, and add it to the Ranger spell list.
 

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