Once you go C&C, you never go back

[slimykuotoan]

Scurvy Platypus, I do get it now; I just needed clarification.

And I wasn't attacking anyone, I truly didn't understand.

It's funny you mention flame wars when all I asked was what was meant by the earlier statement by jdracka. so to me, your response seemed a bit loaded against me.

Obviously this has been a very touchy subject in the past here.

Wow, I missed the boat...I feel like the guy who missed the Greyhawk Wars...

And as to C&C fans, I don't know where the bad ones went went, but since I came aboard I've found them to be the friendliest community out there.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

And I think this is probably the biggest problem with C&C....

It's damn difficult to have a conversation about the system.

Every single time I see it come up, the discussion is sidetracked. There's arguments about C&C just being about "nostalgia gaming", arguments about whether or not there's enough rules already, complaints about the fans/detractors...

Heck, just look at my own recent posts... for some reason, it's _really_ hard to just discuss the system and how well it works, and how to fix what isn't working.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Scurvy Platypus, I do get it now; I just needed clarification.

And I wasn't attacking anyone, I truly didn't understand.

It's funny you mention flame wars when all I asked was what was meant by the earlier statement by jdracka. so to me, your response seemed a bit loaded against me.

Obviously this has been a very touchy subject in the past here.

Drat. I'm sorry you felt that way. I didn't intend for you to feel defensive yourself.

Like I said, that's the way flamewars seem to erupt. It's kinda frustrating for me, because I really do like the system. I just don't like all the baggage that seems to come along with it.

 

[jdrakeh]

In my mind, C&C can both serve as a new way to do old school gaming, and as a way of doing "d20 lite."

Definitely. I ended up going with Basic Fantasy for a few different reasons, though C&C is definitely a viable alternative for both of these things.

I have stopped participating over at Troll Lord Games' boards because of the negativity I was encountering at one point.

I only had one bad experience at the official forums, and that was with just one person. I quit posting there only because I could not find anybody locally who was interested in C&C at the time, so I didn't have much reason to pursue it further. I must have left before the D&D bashing took off there (though it was in full swing elsewhere at the time).

You know, I can understand preferring C&C to d20. That's fine. Some of us, though, actually like both d20 and C&C, as well as AD&D and other systems. It's okay to like your system, but it's not cool bashing someone else's system. This has turned me off to some C&C vocalists, as well as some d20 die-hards, d20 psionics fans, and so on and so forth.

Yep Like I said earlier, every system has its share of rabid (read "unreasonable") fans, though some tend to be more visible than others (which, in turn, contributes to widespread animosity).

Like Treebore says, though, you shouldn't judge a game by its fans (or at least the vocal ones). It's hard to at times, especially if a group of fans is being obnoxious. However, you might miss something really good.

Absolutely -- which is why I tried C&C in the first place. I just didn't stick with it after local interest waned and I couldn't find many fans online with whom gaming seemed like a palatable option.

 

[jdrakeh]

The SEIGE system does kinda handle everything.

Not without the consumer adding a bunch of rules to it. I mean, it handles vanilla fantasy just fine out of the box (as that is what it's designed for) -- but the system itself has no rules for skills, low magic, space travel, modern firearms, running games without a GM, etc, etc, etc. The point is that there is a whole lot that it doesn't do by design.

What I was alluding to is that several vocal fans have, in the past, made claims of C&C being able to do anything by design, which flatly isn't true. In order to do something by design, a game must include rules for it (i.e., to honestly say that a game supports X by design, rules for X must actually be part of the design).

For example, it's entirely possible to create houerules that allow you to run a game of far future space exploration using C&C, the SEIGE engine isn't actually doing any of the heavy lifting -- you are. Saying that C&C can do things that it doesn't provide rules for is being disingenuous, because once you start adding rules that aren't included in the actual system, C&C isn't doing anything (again, you are).

 

[SteveC]

REALLY?!? Ask an OSRIC fan just how darn nice the TL boys are.

I just wanted to say that I'm talking about the actual authors and designers here. Rabid fans of C&C are, well, they're rabid fans like those of any other game. I played in a couple of demo games with the authors, and have seen them respond several times to questions on message boards, and they've never been anything other than professional and courteous. Now I don't have any experience with the OSRIC boards, because OSRIC falls heavily into the "been there, done that" experience for me...even more than C&C.

I'll agree with you that some of the fans of C&C are the reason why many people won't touch the system, but, from my experiences, that's not the situation with the authors.

So hopefully that clarifies things a bit...

--Steve

 

[Aus_Snow]

Tried it briefly, wasn't so impressed.

If I want old school, I'll dig out the ol' 1e and tinker a bit, or maybe some Basic/Expert. Or there's the Rules Cyclopedia, for that matter. I've got friends in the local gaming circles who insist on 'keepin' it old school' and I don't think they would ever consider C&C or the like.

In short, I can't see the point of C&C, or other similar projects. Sure, if other people find them to be just the thing, great! But yeah, personally I just don't get it.

 

[Henry]

See, I still think of ENWorld as a D&D forum. The preeminent pen and paper roleplaying forum. But frankly, most people I know, in real life, feel like discussion other systems and editions is simply no longer allowed here by the vocal majority of posters. Or criticism of the Golden Lamb of the moment.

That, I'm sorry to hear, because we always try to encourage people talking about all of their gaming - hell, the ENnies doesn't close itself to just d20 gaming for that matter, it's open to ALL games. I've used these forums to talk about everything from Feng Shui, to AD&D, to C&C, to Continuum, to Battletech, and even Marvel Super Heroes before.

What I do see sometimes, however, is people who come in with both guns blazing, they get shot down, and then they go to other message forums complaining about how "biased and elitist" things are.

 

[jdrakeh]

I just wanted to say that I'm talking about the actual authors and designers here.

A much needed clarification. I've never had any issue with Troll Lord employees.

 

[Greylock]

Not without the consumer adding a bunch of rules to it. I mean, it handles vanilla fantasy just fine out of the box (as that is what it's designed for) -- but the system itself has no rules for skills, low magic, space travel, modern firearms, running games without a GM, etc, etc, etc. The point is that there is a whole lot that it doesn't do by design.

I'm deeply curious, in all honesty, what core system you are currently using?

Re: Henry... It happens to be I agree with you. Unfortunately none of my friends will hear that, and all of them think I'm nuts for still hanging around here. I would be nuts if I still tried to read the 4th Edition forum, but I'm no longer so tempted to now that it's off on it's own, no longer tempting me at the top of the page in General.