Once you go C&C, you never go back

[Aus_Snow]

All thats needed to play D&D or any FRPG is a way to determine who goes first, who hits who, who saves and how you advance. Keep those things core and your set. C&C doesn't do that

Muh? Firstly, where is that definition of what's 'needed to play D&D or any FRPG' from - what source, or process of logic, even? Secondly, since when did C&C not 'keep those things core'. . .?

The point of C&C was for it to be a platform one could easily customize (or you could leave it as is and play d20 light). It allows its core systems (see above) to be drastically changed from table to table, something 3E and 1E does not easily do. Both 3E and 1E are "best" when their core systems are left intact with only minor changes (in other words, you can't just dump skills or feats in 3E or dump the tables in 1E). Yes, C&C is a complete game in and of itself, its D20 light. C&Cs flavor and power (as Treebore pointed out to us) comes from each player importing rules (or making them up) to create his unique game. Thats what I mean when I say, C&C has an problem with identity: if you sit at one table it feels like your playing 3E at another 1E. If this is the case, why not just play 3E, D20 light or 1E/OD&D?

So. . . it's 'd20 light' according to you, and instead of playing that, why not just play 'd20 light' (or 3e or 1e/'OD&D') ? Right.

As you were. . .

 

[Valiant]

Muh? Firstly, where is that definition of what's 'needed to play D&D or any FRPG' from - what source, or process of logic, even? Secondly, since when did C&C not 'keep those things core'. . .?



So. . . it's 'd20 light' according to you, and instead of playing that, why not just play 'd20 light' (or 3e or 1e/'OD&D') ? Right.

As you were. . .

Exactly right. d20 light does the same thing as C&C (both can be used as a spring board for 3E light, niether one is a good substitute for 1Es table based system if your going in that direction).

 

[gideon_thorne]

The point of C&C was for it to be a platform one could easily customize (or you could leave it as is and play d20 light).

The point of C&C, in part, is to be flexible. A strength that the original designers of OD&D tout for that game as well

It allows its core systems (see above) to be drastically changed from table to table, something 3E and 1E does not easily do. Both 3E and 1E are "best" when their core systems are left intact with only minor changes (in other words, you can't just dump skills or feats in 3E or dump the tables in 1E).

The original designers would disagree. So would the majority of players and game masters. Either system is easy to alter. Otherwise C&C would not have been possible to invent. ^_~`

Yes, C&C is a complete game in and of itself, its D20 light. C&Cs flavor and power (as Treebore pointed out to us) comes from each player importing rules (or making them up) to create his unique game.

And pretty much every OD&D and AD&D game too. I've never seen a single game group play by the book. And I've gamed with a rather extensive variety of people.

Thats what I mean when I say, C&C has an problem with identity: if you sit at one table it feels like your playing 3E at another 1E. If this is the case, why not just play 3E, D20 light or 1E/OD&D?

Because, for some folks 3e is too complex and OD&D and AD&D are out of print.

Exactly right. d20 light does the same thing as C&C (both can be used as a spring board for 3E light, niether one is a good substitute for 1Es table based system if your going in that direction).

That was more nonsensical than usual. Congratulations.

 

[Valiant]

GT: "Otherwise C&C would not have been possible to invent. ^_~`"

GT, this statement is idiotic... What the hell does house ruling AD&D or 3E have to do with the Trolls making a game!

Also, if you think the creators of 3E intended for "house ruling" out skills and feats, or AD&Ds creator intended house ruling out the tables...your out of your mind. Like I said, the house rules seen in these 2 games are relatively minor. If you house rule past a certain point your no longer playing the game (and thats true with any game, be it D&D or Monopoly).

 

[gideon_thorne]

I have never seen 1E played without the "to hit" (or thaco) and save tables, nor have I seen 3E played without feats and skills. The degree of houseruling possible in both systems is much less then C&C (a game that encourages importing what you like from other systems upon its generic D20 mechanic).

I've seen both. I recall a fellow who retooled a few things in AD&D to where everything ran off of the combat system. This was back in the 80's. Class abilities, saves, background checks, all of it was modified to a 'to hit' variable AC number. He wanted less to keep track of.

I've also played in games with folks who ran 3e with a completely redone rules system where feats and skills were more abstract.

I listen to people at local game shops and conventions all the time offer forth phrases like "I know you have all these books, but we're sticking to whats in this players book, plus some of my own modifications to make life easier on the DM. Me!"

It really isn't all that hard to do.

And OD&D and AD&D also encourage modification to suit. Again, the oft repeated mantra is readily debunked.

 

[Dristram]

If this is the case, why not just play 3E, D20 light or 1E/OD&D?

I play C&C because it has that old AD&D feeling to me. I don't play AD&D because I like the streamlined SIEGE mechanic.

 

[Tharkun]

Also, I don't agree that C&C falls into the "incomplete and demands house rules" category. I think it is a complete and standalone system; it doesn't require house-rules. It's very *easy* to house-rule and adapt, and many people do, but it isn't incomplete, as written.

So you're saying that I could recreate Star Trek, Star Wars, WWI, WWII, Post Apocyliptic, The Hitman PC game or Doom or Wolfenstein? All without importing any rules or house ruling a single thing? Please enlighten me as to how this can be done.

I'm curious as from what I've seen it's fantasy only that can be done.

 

[Eridanis]

Please lay off terms like "idiotic"...

 

[Dragon-Slayer]

C&C is complete for a simple fantasy game without a lot of frills. The game is easy to pick up and play and easy to teach others to play, which is a strong selling point to me. After buying the PHB, Monsters & Treasure and Castle Zagyg I sat down, read the rules, ran the game and sold off all my 3.x books, 4e will have to be spectacular for me to even consider looking at the books. I am not a rabid fanboy of C&C, I also run True 20 and WFRP2, and I am not a fan of the C&C art, but the game is great for roleplayers who want a clear rules system that is easy to run and allows players to roleplay from the start and not spend a lot of time looking up a variety of rules.

 

[gideon_thorne]

So you're saying that I could recreate Star Trek, Star Wars, WWI, WWII, Post Apocyliptic, The Hitman PC game or Doom or Wolfenstein? All without importing any rules or house ruling a single thing? Please enlighten me as to how this can be done.

I'm curious as from what I've seen it's fantasy only that can be done.

Well, down the road, TLG is looking at putting out games, based on the core C&C engine, that are WWII, sci fi, dark technology, and others.

What this says:

Originally Posted by Philotomy Jurament
Also, I don't agree that C&C falls into the "incomplete and demands house rules" category. I think it is a complete and stand alone system; it doesn't require house-rules. It's very *easy* to house-rule and adapt, and many people do, but it isn't incomplete, as written.

Is very simple. The game does not require house rules to play it as it stands. But it can be house ruled to adapt to a number of genres.