once you start a PrC, can you lose its requirements and still continue the PrC?

[evilbob]

As the title: if I qualify to start a PrC, then later lose some of the qualifications, can I continue to take levels in the PrC? Maybe another way to word this would be: is the requirement for every subsequent level of any PrC "one previous level of this PrC" or do the requirements remain for every level?

The most broad example of this would be a PrC that requires an alignment, which you later change. For example: a good assassin. If you qualified for it assassin level 1, then became good, could you continue to advance in the class? I suppose a very difficult example could be a PrC that requires a minimum number of skill ranks, and the character was later drained of Intelligence, losing their skill ranks. Again, the assassin: if you lost enough Int to make you have only 7 ranks in Hide and Move Silently, would you be able to advance in that class?

The DMG doesn't say anything specific that I could find, and no PrCs (again, that I could find) had any sort of conditional (like a paladin's conditional about that class: they specifically have a "code of conduct" that is spelled out). In fact, everything I've read specifically uses the words "start" or "become" this class when talking about requirements: they do not mention the word "continue."

The specific example that I was considering would be a Radiant Servant of Pelor (which requires access to the Sun domain), which after qualifying for, a player then took the Sun Devotion feat by trading out their Sun domain for the feat. (The feat is from Complete Champion and the option to trade a domain for the feat is also listed there.) They no longer have access to the Sun domain: can they still take the PrC?


My initial thought is: technically, yes. I'd hate to penalize the poor player who lost some part of her character and then ALSO couldn't continue to level up in her PrC, and it wouldn't be very fair (or easy) to draw a line between that and a flagrant sort of intentional change just done to min/max, like the RSoP thing. And I flat-out like the idea of a good assassin as an RP choice. So it'd be hard to tell the min/maxer "no" when I'd say "yes" to the RP or unlucky ones. Other thoughts?

 

[MithrasRahl]

I would have to say no. If it's an RP problem, give the person an opportunity to RP it back. If you want to allow good assassins, thats your perogative.

However, by the rules, no, you can't continue in a PrC if you don't meet the prereqs.

 

[Rath the Brown]

Complete Warrior (pg. 16) makes mention of what you lose when you lose the requirements for the class. Immediately above that, the book states "...are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class."

According to this reading, in addition to losing the class benefits if you no longer meet the requirements of the class, you are also unable to continue to advance in the prestige class until you again meet those requirements.

 

[sukael]

Complete Warrior (pg. 16) makes mention of what you lose when you lose the requirements for the class. Immediately above that, the book states "...are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class."

According to this reading, in addition to losing the class benefits if you no longer meet the requirements of the class, you are also unable to continue to advance in the prestige class until you again meet those requirements.

Of course, then you run into problems like the dragon disciple requiring that you not be a half-dragon...

 

[evilbob]

However, by the rules, no, you can't continue in a PrC if you don't meet the prereqs.

My question then is: where, in the rules?

Of course, then you run into problems like the dragon disciple requiring that you not be a half-dragon...

True. There are a couple PrCs that turn you into something that require you were not that something to begin with. The requirements are not listed differently than normal requirements.

 

[Rath the Brown]

Of course, then you run into problems like the dragon disciple requiring that you not be a half-dragon...

True and definitely a problem that was missed when this rule was stated when Complete Warrior was written.

Ignoring the problem of exploding Dragon Disciples to focus on the OP's question, do you think a character that lost one of the requirements of entering a prestige class would be able to continue to advance in that class? What if an 5th level Dragon Disciple suddenly lost all of his/her arcane knowledge (Knowledge: Arcana was reduced to 0); would that character still be able to take levels in Dragon Disciple?

 

[Hypersmurf]

My question then is: where, in the rules?

CW16.

-Hyp.

 

[Jack Simth]

CW16.

-Hyp.

A few interesting things of note....

In 3.0, that rule was in the Dungeon Master's Guide - in 3.5, it is not in the Dungeon Master's Guide - it was removed from the DMG in the edition change.

Complete Warrior came out on the heels of the 3.0 -> 3.5 transition... and it was found to have a lot of copy/paste segments that weren't updated in the change, and were incorrect for 3.5.

If you don't have Complete Warrior (it might be in one or two other of the Complete series), there's nothing that says you can't continue to advance in a PrC after losing a requirement ... and Complete Warrior isn't one of the Core books.

The Transformational PrC's (such as the Dragon Disciple) aren't the only ones that break their own requirements - the Ur-Priest, for instance, requires you have no divine spellcasting (or give up all Divine spellcasting abilities) and grants... Divine Spellcasting. At level 1.

The CW rule is demonstrably absurd (the quantum Dragon Disciple-10 being the most common example).

My personal house-rules on the subject:
1) If a prerequisite is taken from you, you maintain class abilities (other than ones where the requirement is clearly deeply involved in the ability, such as the Arcane Trickster's Ranged Legerdemain and the Mage Hand spell), but can't advance further in that PrC until it's fixed. So if a Blackguard gets Ray of Enfeeblemented down to the point where he can't use Power Attack anymore, he doesn't lose his Dark Blessing.
2) If you voluntarily relinquish a prerequisite (e.g., you retrain a required feat) you lose everything but BAB, skills, HP, saves, and +Existing spellcasting abilities. Classes that break their own requirements (e.g., Dragon Disciple-10) are immune to this clause in that aspect of the breakage.

 

[Storme]

Each prestige class pretty much talks about this, unless in cases of pure logic. Assassins are evil because (irregardless of justification), killing for profit is an inherently evil act. If you kill for purposes other than profit, you are functioning outside the confines of the class, and are no longer an assassin.

as·sas·sin/əˈsæsɪn. Spelled Pronunciation[uh-sas-in] –noun
1. a murderer, esp. one who kills a politically prominent person for fanatical or monetary reasons.

If an Ur Priest becomes good...they are NO LONGER an Ur Priest by any stretch of the imagination. A Vassal of Bahamut who becomes evil, can no longer progress as a Lawful Good Icon of a Lawful Evil diety, nor would he retain most class features!

Where logic doesn't enter, the description does...such as where it states the consequences of alignment changes as a Kensai.

Bottom line...ask your DM. He will decide what's what.

If you're a DM, read the class description in detail...including the "Becoming An..." sections and the rest of the class descripton starting in "Playing An..." section all the way to the end. Most classes I've seen that says the effects of changing requirements or even changing the class is discussed here. Also (as good DMs do), talk to the player. His input is appropriate here. Finally, make your decision based on the needs and tenor of the campaign (i.e. in AD&D I had an assassin who completely stopped functioning as a paid assassin and operated soley as a bodyguard for a lawful neutral cleric...my DM and everyone in the group...agreed that he should continue as an assassin and his abilities, despite the fact that he no longer functioned as an "evil" character, living soley to protect his charge). As I've said a million times, the Play is the Thing. Ignore or discard any rule that hinders the story. A well run campaign would be no less enjoyable if using hastily scribbled rules on a napkin if the storyline is good.

I personally have an Assassin character in 3.5 that SHOULD be lawful neutral (per a discussion with the DM) and he decided that he would be unable to progress in the prestige class if his alignment officially changes considering the nature of the class, but retain his existing class features. Somewhat disappointed, I am forced to agree.

Any class that required an alignment as a requirement should (possibly invariably) disallow continuing in the class if the alignment changes, or such as in the case of a druid or a paladin, prohibit the use of most class features gained by that class. Logically again I would seriously consider as a DM disallowing progression in a class that loses Skill Rank (not sure how that could happen), or Ability Score requirements for much the same reasons. How can you progress if you can't technically do it?


Storme

 

[Goobermunch]

The Transformational PrC's (such as the Dragon Disciple) aren't the only ones that break their own requirements - the Ur-Priest, for instance, requires you have no divine spellcasting (or give up all Divine spellcasting abilities) and grants... Divine Spellcasting. At level 1.

The CW rule is demonstrably absurd (the quantum Dragon Disciple-10 being the most common example).

Honestly, here's what I think the best house rule is: if the PrC grants you an ability that is in conflict with the prerequisites, you may continue to advance in the class. This is because the ability is necessarily part of the class. This rule deals with the Dragon Disciple and the Ur-Priest quite handily.

By commencing on the PrC, you begin a path of development. While entry to the path may be limited by excluding certain people, once you're on the path, you are expected to continue it.

At the same time, if, by some other mechanism, you lose an ability that is required for membership in the organization or is an essential part of the development path, you cannot advance any further.

Consider a warforged juggernaut. If the character is killed and reincarnated as a wood elf, she's not going to be advancing as a construct any further. In fact, from a rational point of view, she probably won't even maintain any of those powers.

I realize this is a more, case by case analysis, and not as pat as Hyp's CW16 response, but it also offers a rationale behind the rule.

Also, CW16 isn't core.

--G