• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D (2024) One D&D Cleric and Species playtest survey is live.

Chaosmancer

Legend
When considering the astonishing diversity of fantasy forms of life − or rather forms of consciousness: "My parents have an inter-type marriage." Sounds plausible.

Sure, and it is just as plausible that children at school will make custom messages for their maternal units. But realistically, it sounds weird to phrase it that way.

"Which Creature Types are on the moms side?" "They are all the Elf Type."

Which sounds like they are in a video game. Sorry, it just does.

Youre right about "Natural".

Humans are Material Humanoids, from the Material Plane.

Elementals are made out of matter too, so that might need some clarification.



Maybe a "Living" Origin and specifically refers to the Creature Types that are analogous to reallife biological "Life", where Ooze, Plant, and Beast are Suborigins.

Humans are Living (Beast) Humanoids.

Genasi are Elemental (Earth, Water, Air, or Fire) Humanoids.

Both Life and Elemental are made out of matter.

I guess I don't see what use this is. Sure, it would be like phylum, class and order, but that stuff is only useful in a scientific manner. For the VAST majority of game time, this type of organizing structure would never be used.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Chaosmancer

Legend
On the mechanics side of things, I had issue with how Intimidation interacts with the normalized Influence rules.

First, there's the old issue with tying Intimidation to Charisma. In some senses it works, but in others it really doesn't.

The other Charisma skills — Deception, Persuasion, and Performance — work very much in a positive correlation with the expectations of Charisma. Being charismatic makes people more inclined to like you, believe you, and enjoy being around you. It's easier to convince them to do things your way, they're more likely to say good things about you to others (increasing your reputation), and so forth.

Intimidation is the exact opposite. It's about getting people to fear you. Any reputation to be gained is in you being someone that people don't cross. People don't like you, and don't want to believe your lies. Certainly you're not putting on an entertaining performance on stage.

This is a longstanding complaint about the Intimidation skill, of course. Some suggest changing the stat used to Strength, to be better suited for the brutish fighter types who presumably would be more likely to use sheer presence to influence people in this way.

I actually don't think Strength is a good match. I think, instead, that Wisdom is the best stat to tie to Intimidation. Wisdom is already connected with the Animal Handling and Insight skills, both of which feel like a much closer match to the act of intimidating someone — reading someone's state of mind, and carefully shifting it at a primal/emotional level.

Of course, this suggests clerics and druids might be some of the best at intimidation. And, well... a priest giving a fiery speech about hell and brimstone seems pretty intimidating to me, as would a grubby woodsman who might turn into a bear and tear my head off at any moment. So I'd actually be fine with that. Certainly more so than bards or sorcerers or warlocks trying to be intimidating. And Wisdom isn't a complete dump stat for warrior types, so as long as they take proficiency in it, it works at an OK level for them, too.

However that's only covering the first half of the problem with Influence. The other (major) problem is that the latest playtest gives you advantage on influencing Friendly creatures, and disadvantage on influencing Hostile creatures. For Persuasion, Deception, and Animal Handling, that makes sense. For Intimidation, though, it feels completely backwards. You're not going to use Intimidation on a Friendly creature, and while you'll want to use it on a Hostile creature, now you're at disadvantage? That's nuts.

Honestly, trying to tie any advantage/disadvantage to the Friendly/Neutral/Hostile axis just doesn't make sense for Intimidate. If anything, I'd say you might get advantage/disadvantage based on size and numbers. If you're larger than the creature (or have a trait like Powerful Build that gives you an effective boost to size), or you sufficiently outnumber the target, you can get advantage. If you're smaller or have fewer numbers, you get disadvantage.


I commented on the feedback that I thought this was a problem, but didn't have solid thoughts on how to fix it (or the space to write in something like this).

This is all a very good point, but I also have a secondary concern as well.

Do you need to even roll intimidation most of the time? I don't think a fighter in scale mail, wielding a dozen different implements of death, who has killed more monsters than he has teeth, really needs to TRY to intimidate Joe the Farmer. If Joe has any sense, he is scared.

Alternatively, a fighter without an impressive reputation isn't really going to intimidate Dark Lord Loza, Vampire and Blood Prince of the Shadow Empire, because he is the type of villain who intimidates others, not one who is intimidated. A good example of this conundrum comes from Hulk in the MCU. None of the villains are ever scared of Hulk, even when they should be, because them being scared ruins the moment, but you don't need to show that the waitress is scared of him.

I could see tying it to any number of stats, depending on how you are intimidating someone, but I think the larger question comes in with.. how do we want to USE this ability? Deception and Puersuasion like you noted are generally more useful tools, applicable to a wider set of situations. But is the goal to intimidate only in combat contexts? Only when you are stronger? Usually when you are weaker as a bluff? We can imagine how we want our characters to be scary, but how do we as DMs want people using Intimidation? What is the goal?
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Sure, and it is just as plausible that children at school will make custom messages for their maternal units. But realistically, it sounds weird to phrase it that way.



Which sounds like they are in a video game. Sorry, it just does.



I guess I don't see what use this is. Sure, it would be like phylum, class and order, but that stuff is only useful in a scientific manner. For the VAST majority of game time, this type of organizing structure would never be used.
Who people phrase things depends on the context. A necromancer setting up the ritual circles on their first zombies is going to be reading the "creature type: elf, fey" entry in their intro to basic necromancy if the raw materials they have to work with is an elf. Likewise a magewright herbalist looking up "creature type elf, fey" rather than the "creature type: faerie, fey" one just below it when double checking the dosage for digitalis needed for a weak & thready pulse. Meanwhile an elven refugee from Cyre is going to fill out "elf" "elven" or maybe "elf, fey" in the paperwork where it says race species lineage type or whatever it happens to say when trying to get admitted to a refugee camp .
:D
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Even the brute needs Charisma to benefit from being a menace.

I disagree. Let's take a Gnoll Packlord. They have a -1 to charisma and no skill in intimidation. So they are, purely mechanically, less scary than a farmer.

However if a 7 foot monster, smelling of rot and death and looking like this

D_xz4GvWwAAALX6.png

Puts a dagger to the throat of Dale the Turnip Farmer, Dale is going to be PLENTY intimidated. He is going to beg for his life and do what the giant murder monster wants, in hopes of getting out of this alive. Sure, maybe the City Watch Leader is made of sterner stuff, but the idea that that monster is less intimidating than any commoner because it has a -1 Charisma makes no sense.

Otherwise a dangerous nuisance gets the opposite of cooperation.

A brute with a high Charisma is oneself the "credible threat". So there is some convenience when wielding the Intimidation skill.

But I think you are burying the lead with your phrasing. Someone capable of casually murdering you with their bare hands (any person with a 16 strength) is not a "dangerous Nuisance" they are a credible threat to your life. Which makes their ability to intimidate being tied to their ability to be liked kind of weird. You don't need to have a strong sense of self or the ability to lead others into battle to be scary and dangerous. Many scary and dangerous people are not charismatic, but that doesn't make them LESS intimidating.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Who people phrase things depends on the context. A necromancer setting up the ritual circles on their first zombies is going to be reading the "creature type: elf, fey" entry in their intro to basic necromancy if the raw materials they have to work with is an elf. Likewise a magewright herbalist looking up "creature type elf, fey" rather than the "creature type: faerie, fey" one just below it when double checking the dosage for digitalis needed for a weak & thready pulse. Meanwhile an elven refugee from Cyre is going to fill out "elf" "elven" or maybe "elf, fey" in the paperwork where it says race species lineage type or whatever it happens to say when trying to get admitted to a refugee camp .
:D

But do we really care what the magewright herbalist is looking up in their book? Even if it is a player character, they aren't going care how the patient is categorized, they are going to care about the dosage.

How is the Necromancer's scene changed by looking up "Elf" compared to "Creature type, Wood Elf, Fey"? Like, if I was playing a necromancer I'm not going to ask my DM to refer to the entry in purely scientific terms, heck, I KNOW the spell doesn't change based on it being an Elf or a Dwarf, so I'm already hamming it up by even bringing it up.

It would be like insisting that we have to refer to creatures as Canis Lupis Gigante in game, instead of as Dire Wolf. We could, there is a space for refering to creatures by their scienitific names... but does it come up often enough to make any difference in the game without forcing it? I don't think so. Especially since I have never run a game where it came up.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Intimidate is in a class of its own as far as skills go. A Znir pact gnoll necromancer animating the Dale the turnip farmer to demand the paperwork in Dale's own dead & ragged voice from Ivan the city watch commander while a hypothetical gnoll pack leader is holding Ivan down in the growing puddle of Dale's blood. The attribute is always going to depend on the action being taken to intimidate. The Necromancer may not have said a word& may not even be visible to Ivan but is being pretty darned intimidating.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
But do we really care what the magewright herbalist is looking up in their book? Even if it is a player character, they aren't going care how the patient is categorized, they are going to care about the dosage.

How is the Necromancer's scene changed by looking up "Elf" compared to "Creature type, Wood Elf, Fey"? Like, if I was playing a necromancer I'm not going to ask my DM to refer to the entry in purely scientific terms, heck, I KNOW the spell doesn't change based on it being an Elf or a Dwarf, so I'm already hamming it up by even bringing it up.

It would be like insisting that we have to refer to creatures as Canis Lupis Gigante in game, instead of as Dire Wolf. We could, there is a space for refering to creatures by their scienitific names... but does it come up often enough to make any difference in the game without forcing it? I don't think so. Especially since I have never run a game where it came up.
Yes. Yes we do. We care because creature type is a mechanical thing & when a system is built to incorporate a well fleshed out mechanic rather than a narrative flourish it's less likely to be forgotten & hijacked in chapter N of xxx guide to yyy or whatever because it makes a better story to reinvent or simplt forget a narrative first named taxonomy in a way that conflicts with the initial design paradigm. A
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱 He-Mage
I disagree. Let's take a Gnoll Packlord. They have a -1 to charisma and no skill in intimidation. So they are, purely mechanically, less scary than a farmer.

However if a 7 foot monster, smelling of rot and death and looking like this

View attachment 271003
Puts a dagger to the throat of Dale the Turnip Farmer, Dale is going to be PLENTY intimidated. He is going to beg for his life and do what the giant murder monster wants, in hopes of getting out of this alive. Sure, maybe the City Watch Leader is made of sterner stuff, but the idea that that monster is less intimidating than any commoner because it has a -1 Charisma makes no sense.



But I think you are burying the lead with your phrasing. Someone capable of casually murdering you with their bare hands (any person with a 16 strength) is not a "dangerous Nuisance" they are a credible threat to your life. Which makes their ability to intimidate being tied to their ability to be liked kind of weird. You don't need to have a strong sense of self or the ability to lead others into battle to be scary and dangerous. Many scary and dangerous people are not charismatic, but that doesn't make them LESS intimidating.
Tell that to King Kong.

Tell that to Frankenstein.

Tell that to any low-Charisma threat.

Dangerous nuance gains noncooperation.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
Its going to take some getting used to hearing a dwarf say "The long line of my species watches over me and inspires me with their strength to wield the Hammer of the Dwarven Lords" instead of heritage, ancestors, or bloodline.

Hyperbolic example aside, a proper word to replace race should fill mechanically and narratively...and I dont think we will find a perfect fit, it will likley skew one way or the other...and we will deal with any inconsistencies as they arise.
 


Remove ads

Top