One Progression to Rule Them All....

[EvilDwarf]

Since the other scoop thread on Races and Classes seems to be focused on Dragonborn as the new race, I thought I would start a thread for those who want to speculate on one other aspect of the scoop: that classes would have one progression for BAB, possibly AC, possibly HP, etc.

Star Wars Saga already does this for Defenses (Reflex, Will, and Fortitude), with different classes getting initial "kicks" like a +2 Reflex, +0 Will, +0 Fortitude at creation.

The scoop suggests that classes will differentiate through skills, feats, etc.

Further speculation on how one progression will play out in 4E? Such as Saga style bonueses to Defenses? How would BAB and AC work? Anyone think HP will go this way, too? To what else might one progression be applied and how would it work?

 

[Gloombunny]

It would fit the "extend the sweet spot" thing they've talked about. In 3e, the BAB difference between fighter and wizard is +1 at level 1, and +10 at level 20. Going to a universal progression with fixed bonuses would mean that fighter would be, say +5 over wizard at all levels.

 

[Remathilis]

I don't think it will be all one formula, but many of them will be consolidated.

BAB: 2 or 3 tracks (good, average, maybe poor)

HD: I'm going to go out on a limb and say three or four HD are kept (d6, d8, d10, maybe d12 for fighters) NO more d4 hp wizard is my guess.

Save/Defense: 10 + Char level + attribute + one-time class kicker (+0-+3) + feats or magic

AC: Either 10 + Dex + Char Level, 1/2 Char Level or BAB progression + Armor

Talents: Every Odd Level (1, 3, 5, 7, 9)

Bonus Feats: Every Even Level (2, 4, 6, 8)

Normal Feats: 1 + 1 every 3 levels (1, 3, 6, 9)

Ability Score Mods: 2 every four levels (4, 8, 12) for 10 total.

Spells: Not Sure

 

[Goken100]

Now I understand multiclassing...

Now we know why multiclassing doesn't simply convey all the powers of a level 1 character: you won't get the flat initial bonuses to attack, defense, etc. You just get a few new powers, but still have whatever 1-time bonuses you got at 1st level.

I'm sort of worried by this, because it means it will be harder than I anticipated to change the multiclass rules if I don't like them (to something more 3Eish). Ah well, I will just hope that they work well. *COMMENCE EPIC HOPING*

 

[Baron Opal]

I expect that there may be a master chart where your character level determines your BAB and "heroic save bonus" and your class level determines your one-time bonus to saves, sporadic bonus to BAB for fighters and what class abilities you gain.

 

[Irda Ranger]

It would fit the "extend the sweet spot" thing they've talked about. In 3e, the BAB difference between fighter and wizard is +1 at level 1, and +10 at level 20. Going to a universal progression with fixed bonuses would mean that fighter would be, say +5 over wizard at all levels.

Yes. If Class X is always "just as better" over the other classes as 3E classes are between levels 7-12, then the balance will always remain the same.

Fighter
Attack: Melee +4, Ranged +4, Spells +0
Defense: Fort +3, Will +0, Ref +0
Special: Weapon Specialization

Paladin
Attack: Melee +4, Ranged +3, Spells +0
Defense: Fort +3, Will +1, Ref +0
Special: Faith Strike

Warlock
Attack: Melee +0, Ranged +1, Spells +4
Defense: Fort +0, Will +3, Ref +0
Special: Pact With [Demon,Shadow,Fey]

Multiclass Rule: If you multiclass into a new class, you gain half of the benefit of their first level bonuses, rounded down. This does not stack with bonuses you already have from your primary class.

etc.

By the way, I included "Ranged" as a separate attack type because we know the Ranger is good with them, and that Warlords are better at melee than ranged attacks.

 

[Atlatl Jones]

I suspected that there would be a single progression for powers, but I didn't expect one for everything.

For powers it makes sense: Your level determines how many powers you have, and you choose them based on your class. "Multiclassing" gives you the ability to choose a numbers of powers from a different list. That's what keeps multiclassed spellcasters balanced: You still have the same number of powers as a single class spellcaster, but split up your powers between the various classes that you're multiclassed in.

 

[DandD]

In theory, wouldn't it work if Base Attack Bonus was treated like a skill? So, you have half your normal character level as bonus to it, and certain classes have BAB as a class skill, so they get a +5 bonus to it, and some further specialised classes could even invest that skill-focus feat for another +5 bonus. Of course, that's with the information I have from this message board about how it's done in Star Wars Galaxies with the skills advancement.

I expect that the class skill- and skill focus feat-boni won't be as high as +5 each, probably something more down, but it could in theory work, wouldn't it?

So, for example, classes like Wizards and Sorcerors and whatever similar only get their normal 1/2-level bonus to BAB.

More dedicated classes like the Rogue, the Cleric and others would have BAB as class skill, giving them some kind of boost at the first level, and then progressing normally and nicely like the Wizards and co.

Absolutely dedicated fighting classes like the Paladin, the Barbarian, the Fighter and such can even apply the Skill Focus Feat on it, and do snazzy stuff like re-rolling a miss once per combat or whatever snazzy thing the skill focus feat and class skill-combination does grant (I did hear that if you have both together, you can do such things like take 10 or rerolls, depending on your race and base class, but I'm not that sure).
It would bring fighting more in line with the skill system too.

It's not going to be perfect I guess, but what do you think? Could it somehow happen for 4th edition? Is it too simplicistic?

Don't hang yourself upon the SW-SAGA-numbers who grant +5/+10 to the skill when dismissing the idea, it's only an example and doesn't have to be like this in 4th edition.

 

[Aage]

Fighter
Attack: Melee +4, Ranged +4, Spells +0
Defense: Fort +3, Will +0, Ref +0
Special: Weapon Specialization

Paladin
Attack: Melee +4, Ranged +3, Spells +0
Defense: Fort +3, Will +1, Ref +0
Special: Faith Strike

Warlock
Attack: Melee +0, Ranged +1, Spells +4
Defense: Fort +0, Will +3, Ref +0
Special: Pact With [Demon,Shadow,Fey]

Multiclass Rule: If you multiclass into a new class, you gain half of the benefit of their first level bonuses, rounded down. This does not stack with bonuses you already have from your primary class.

Yeah, I would like something like this. Except the multiclass rule, I don't see why that is needed; It'd make single-class an inferior option...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In theory, wouldn't it work if Base Attack Bonus was treated like a skill? So, you have half your normal character level as bonus to it, and certain classes have BAB as a class skill, so they get a +5 bonus to it, and some further specialised classes could even invest that skill-focus feat for another +5 bonus. Of course, that's with the information I have from this message board about how it's done in Star Wars Galaxies with the skills advancement.

I expect that the class skill- and skill focus feat-boni won't be as high as +5 each, probably something more down, but it could in theory work, wouldn't it?

So, for example, classes like Wizards and Sorcerors and whatever similar only get their normal 1/2-level bonus to BAB.

More dedicated classes like the Rogue, the Cleric and others would have BAB as class skill, giving them some kind of boost at the first level, and then progressing normally and nicely like the Wizards and co.

Absolutely dedicated fighting classes like the Paladin, the Barbarian, the Fighter and such can even apply the Skill Focus Feat on it, and do snazzy stuff like re-rolling a miss once per combat or whatever snazzy thing the skill focus feat and class skill-combination does grant (I did hear that if you have both together, you can do such things like take 10 or rerolls, depending on your race and base class, but I'm not that sure).
It would bring fighting more in line with the skill system too.

It's not going to be perfect I guess, but what do you think? Could it somehow happen for 4th edition? Is it too simplicistic?

Don't hang yourself upon the SW-SAGA-numbers who grant +5/+10 to the skill when dismissing the idea, it's only an example and doesn't have to be like this in 4th edition.

The main problem is probably how you cope with multiclassing, and how the differences between specialized and non-specialized characters in this area are handled. Otherwise, I think the basic idea makes sense.
I am not sure a difference of more than 5 points in attack bonus can be reasonably handled since one group of characters would probably hit too often or to less (mainly from a psychological point of view)
Though there can be counters to that - if characters with a 10 point attack difference could reduce the bonus to get extra attacks or damage, this might balance out again (they basically get the chances for a near "auto-hit" to the possiblity of double damage, and if done right, choosing extra attacks might turn out more effective on average.)