D&D 4E One thing I miss from 4e...the Saving Throws

[Sword of Spirit]

I actually like the fact that not being proficient in a save in 5e is a serious weakness. But then again, I like the rock-paper-scissors tactical aspect of D&D and am glad 5e adding some of that back in.

 

[Pvt. Winslow]

I've actually run a campaign so far from level 3 to level 9 where we've used the 4E style of taking the best of str/con as Fort, dex/int as Ref, and wis/cha as Will.

I don't recommend it.

Spells and abilities in 5E are by design meant for characters to fail them quite often. That's why nearly every ability or spell in the game allows consecutive saves or has concentration, where characters can use inspiration, class features, or other abilities to try and boost their success chance. The base DCs, at least in the lower levels, are low enough that even having no bonus in a stat, a character still still reliably make the save in 1-2 rounds after being affected.

Once you change that, and let characters take the best stats, I noticed my players making nearly every save I threw at them, and I had casters and special abilities in almost every fight. 5E has a lot of of ways to boost saves, break spell concentration, line of sight, or other things to recover from effects. The 4E style of combining saves really scews the math on it, and also changes some of the concepts of the game.

I believe the 6 score save system was a good idea, however there's definitely a lack of abilities and spells that target str, int, and cha. It could have been implemented better.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Yes, PCs are strong enough. To answer the question about what the implications would be of changing it...well it would make PCs more powerful.

Does anyone really feel that PCs in 5e need to be more powerful? (Beyond some preferences for starting out more powerful than 1st-level.)

 

[Jester David]

The problem with the 3 saves system is that it makes it much easier to have dump stats, since three of your stats can be low without penalty.
It rewards specialization.

 

[cmad1977]

I prefer the 6 saves.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

The problem with the 3 saves system is that it makes it much easier to have dump stats, since three of your stats can be low without penalty.
It rewards specialization.

That's why you should use the sum of two relevant stats for each save - any dump stat will make you worse at one of the saves, and it's guaranteed to be a save that comes up semi-frequently. As it currently stands, you can still mostly afford to dump Int or Cha, because those saves are so rare. If your Will save was the sum of your Wisdom bonus and Cha bonus, and your Reflex save was the sum of your Dex bonus and Int bonus, then you would actually suffer from dumping anything.

 

[ccs]

I'm happy with the 5e saves, but 4e's choice of two abilities to choose from for each defence was a good idea in my opinion I'm fairly certain they would have kept it for 5e had they stuck with fortitude, reflex, and will instead of each ability having it's own save. This has actually made me wonder how it would affect the game if those 3 saves were brought back.

I don't see how it'd be any different than 3x/PF (if based on 1 stat), or 4e (if based on 2 stats).
DM: Make a Fort/Reflex/Will Save, DC____
Player: Ok. Rolls d20, adds relevant modifier, reports result.

The only real thing is that the 4E method virtually assures you a bonus no matter what your saving against. Wich is as rediculous today as it was 8 years ago.

 

[NotActuallyTim]

I like the six save system as a way of clearly balancing value between the ability scores, although the actual effects that use those saves and the frequency of said effects could be improved.

I think they should have put in a section demonstrating improvising the creation of a saving throw during play to help DMs introduce the saves at the rate their game needs, rather than relying on monsters and traps to do it for them.

 

[Hawk Diesel]

I like the 5e saving throw system. Yea, some saving throws are more useful than others, but that's why each class gets proficiency in two of the saves. Usually, one of those saves is going to be a useful save (Dex, Con, Wis) and the other will be the more rarely used save (Str, Int, Cha). In my mind, that's pretty fairly balanced, and makes more sense than the 4e saving throws/defenses.

 

[Yaarel]

Str/Con: Added to your Fort Save cuz you were just "tough" if you had a high score in either of these.

Int/Dex: You had a good reflex cuz you were just quick on your feet, either through natural talent or by just being aware of your surroundings.

Wis/Cha: You had a good Will Save because you were wise enough not to be fooled or had a strong personality that was hard to dominate."

A similar setup also has merit:



Str/Con - Fortitude (withstand punishment)

Wis/Dex - Reflex (get out of the way - where Wisdom is sensory Perception only)

Int/Cha - Will (handles ALL mental defenses)