Ongoing spell effects on attended items vs Dispel Magic

[Shin Okada]

I guess this has been discussed thousands of times. But I want to know if there was some official clarification or, some consensus widely accepted by DMs. Or at least, would you please give me your opinion?

How Dispel Magic (and it's variants) affects ongoing spell effects on attended items?

From SRD,

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.
Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.
You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:
Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.
If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.
If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.
You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.
Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.
For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.
For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.
For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.
For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.
If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.
You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.
Counterspell: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

Assuming a PC has a +3 Greatsword on which Keen Edge and Undead Bane Weapon spells are cast. My current adjudications are,

1) Target Dispel against the PC.
Does not affects the greatsword at all. Keen Edge and Undead Bane Weapon are not the ongoing spell effects on the target (PC). And target dispel against the PC does not supress the greatsword's magical property (+3 enhancement bonus).

2) Target Dispel Against the Sword.
Both Keen Edge and Undead Bane Weapon are subject to dispel checks. Both of them may be dispelled. Also, if the greatsword's magical property (+3 enhancement bonus) can be suppressed.

3) Area Dispel
The Greatsword is counted as "object within the area that is the target of one or more spells". So, up to one spell casts on it may be dispelled. But area dispel will never suppress the greatsword's magical property (+3 enhancement bonus).

Thanks in advance.

 

[FEADIN]

1 and 2 ok, 3 is wrong even if it doesn't specify that attended object are unaffected we always ruled that way; attended object must be specificaly targeted unless the spell or ability says they are.
But I admit that the ruling can be as you said.

Area Dispel: When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.
For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.
For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.
For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.
For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

 

[frankthedm]

I say Shin is right on #3, or at the least that is the way it should be run.

The creature’s magic items are not affected.

I say this should be read as only in reference to dispel magic's potential to suppress a magic item's actual properties. I say each item caught in an area dispel can have a buff stripped off, whether the item is attended or not.

 

[FEADIN]

I say Shin is right on #3. I say this should be read as only in reference to dispel magic's potential to suppress a magic item's actual properties. I say each item caught in an area dispel can have a buff stripped off, whether the item is attended or not.

I know but it's not this sentence which point me toward another ruling it's the fact that attended object are (usually) not independent from the bearer unless specificaly targeted.
By RAW 3 is closer to what you say than from my idea I admit.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I know but it's not this sentence which point me toward another ruling it's the fact that attended object are (usually) not independent from the bearer unless specificaly targeted.

Doesn't that suggest that #1 is incorrect, then?

 

[Shin Okada]

Thank you all for giving your opinions.

It seems that basically, this issue has been narrowed down to one point.

Whether if an attended item is considered to be a part of a character for the purpose of dispelling or not.

At this moment, I am leaning toward the latter. But please suggest me if there are more evidences or logic which make this issues clear.


And, I have another question,

Target Dispel can target a spell.

Some spells, like Haste or Mass-XXX spells target multiple creatures/items at once.

Can you target that spell and dispel the effects on all the targets of that spell, with only one dispel check?

I mean, assume a PC casts Brilliant Aura and made all the melee weapons of the party members into Brilliant Energy weapons. Can an opponent use Greater Dispel Magic and target "Brilliant Aura spell", to remove Brilliant Weapon properties from all the weapons at once?

My current campaign hits 18th-level and likely to hit 19th in the next session. As so many PCs and opponents use spells and spell-like abilities, buffing and dispelling are becoming more and more important and complex.

 

[NewJeffCT]

well, I read somewhere else (maybe the WotC forums?) that at high levels, one of the primary functions of casters is buffing the party and debuffing the bad guys...

But, I think you are correct in how you are playing things, though I can see some disagreement on the line "magic items are not affected" piece, even if its a special spell effect on a magic item.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Thank you all for giving your opinions.

It seems that basically, this issue has been narrowed down to one point.

Whether if an attended item is considered to be a part of a character for the purpose of dispelling or not.

At this moment, I am leaning toward the latter. But please suggest me if there are more evidences or logic which make this issues clear.


And, I have another question,

Target Dispel can target a spell.

Some spells, like Haste or Mass-XXX spells target multiple creatures/items at once.

Can you target that spell and dispel the effects on all the targets of that spell, with only one dispel check?

I mean, assume a PC casts Brilliant Aura and made all the melee weapons of the party members into Brilliant Energy weapons. Can an opponent use Greater Dispel Magic and target "Brilliant Aura spell", to remove Brilliant Weapon properties from all the weapons at once?

My current campaign hits 18th-level and likely to hit 19th in the next session. As so many PCs and opponents use spells and spell-like abilities, buffing and dispelling are becoming more and more important and complex.

Brillant Aura is a area buff like Bless I believe. So dispel the area effect gets rid of it all.
Haste is a target buff: it targets each person. So each person must be dispelled individually.

 

[Shin Okada]

Brillant Aura is a area buff like Bless I believe. So dispel the area effect gets rid of it all.
Haste is a target buff: it targets each person. So each person must be dispelled individually.

Actually, Brilliant Aura is a target spell like Haste.

Does that (area spell or target spell) make difference when someone try to use a target dispel and try to choose a spell as a target?

 

[FEADIN]

Think that each one is affected by the same spell even if it's individually targeted and you can roll one dispel chek only for all those who are in the area but once again I admit that in tha case of an area dispel it's not very clear because if it's ok on one creature all the others loose the spell.....even if they are not in the area?
Mmmmmm....