OotS 406

Nifft said:
She did NOT believe he was evil.

She simply thinks he's working for someone who is Evil.

What do we know about Shojo? We know he's a 14th level Noble who isn't Lawful (but is most likely Good).

Let's review what Miko must do to become an Ex-Paladin...

SRD said:
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Technically, she's following the Paladin Code pretty strictly, however...

She's quickly on her way to becoming one of those people she's supposed to be punishing for harming or threatening innocents -- due to that aforementioned tendency to jump to conclusions. Plus, her precipitious and vigilante method of dealing with those who offend her code is likely nudging her away from the Lawful half of Lawful Good... Rather than her becoming not-Good, I think she's more likely to become not-Lawful, especially considering her now utterly shaken faith in what she had previously thought was the legitimate authority of Azure City and the Sapphire Paladins.
 

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Miko has become somebody who values her own view of the world over those of others, and is willing to kill somebody who a) does not detect as evil, and b) is not an immediate threat to her, and is willing to do so c) in a way that violates the law of the land, and d) is in direct contradiction of the opinion of another paladin (Hinjo), who she clearly believes to be pure of intent.

I would say she is wandering down the path to evil. Justifying your actions with delusions that are contradicted by those around you does not allow you to stay "good," even if you perceive it that way.

I wonder if her pantheon has a god of vengeance, and what the alignment of that god might be?
 

Pbartender said:
Let's review what Miko must do to become an Ex-Paladin...
Yes, let's.

Pbartender said:
SRD said:
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates
While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Technically, she's following the Paladin Code pretty strictly,

(underlined sections above marked by me)

No, technically she just broke it wide open and left its shattered chunks bleeding on the floor. :)

First, the Evil act part. One must keep in mind that Paladins are beholden to Divine laws above those of the mortal world, first and foremost. Thus, the important question to answer here is not whether Miko views what she's doing as an Evil act; it is whether the gods would see it as an Evil act. Given that Shojo really was working in the best interests of the city, world, and even the gods themselves, even if it meant breaking the Oath- and further given that he's definitely not Evil-aligned- it's difficult to argue that the gods could see his murder as anything but an Evil act. It places the city in more danger than it was already in, since it creates a power vacuum at the top of the city hierarchy at precisely the worst possible time. Shojo was an unarmed man, old and feeble physically, clearly no threat to Miko in combat terms (or even, likely, in legal terms since he needed her for political purposes)- innocent or not, just up and killing him is either downright Evil, or close enough that when combined with the other circumstances it makes no difference.

As for the Paladin's Code, it seems clear that Shojo was the legitimate ruler of Azure City, and thus represents that pesky "legitimate authority" that Miko as a Paladin is supposed to respect. Killing him outright, even after a fellow Paladin pleaded with her to stop, is a clear violation of the requirement to treat him respectfully. In fact, it could be argued that since Shojo was presumably to be put under arrest and on trial later, he was no longer the ruler of the city, which would mean Hinjo was- which means Miko directly disobeyed an order from her superior in killing Shojo.

Finally, though the quoted Paladin's code says nothing about attacking unarmed people who are no physical threat, it's tough to argue that that could be considered "honorable" and I personally would tell a Paladin player that he'd been dishonorable in attacking Shojo in this case. Attacking unarmed old people with no magical powers just isn't my idea of the honorable knight in shining armor that the Paladin is supposed to represent.
 



Voadam said:
For the record I would not remove her paladin status. She honestly, though unreasonably, believes he is evil and I would not make take away powers over a paladin striking against what it thought was evil.
Key words: THOUGH UNREASONABLY. She was reckless and irresponsible, and that's thouroughly un-Paladin-like behaviour. And don't even get me started on how her ego ties into it; she cares more about her own sense of righteousness than about the consequences of her actions, as clearly illustrated in her exchange with Hinjo.

Besides, by your standard it would be almost impossible to lose your paladinhood, ever. Alignment is not relative. It doesn't matter what she thought was evil, if the basis for her thinking that was lacking; and it was, in spades.
 





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