OotS 406

[Grog]

In the games that I have seen a paladin with the ability to dispence justice the paladins in question have used tools like detect evil, discern lie, even an augury.

But Miko didn't do any of those things here and you've been defending her.

 

[Grog]

What happens in a society when an innocent person is executed because a jury found them guilty? Does thtis society suddenly become a lawful evil society?

There is a world of difference between a defendant being found guilty by a jury after due process of law, and a single "paladin" cutting him down on the street because he believed he was guilty of something.

There's a very good reason that police aren't allowed to summarily execute people who commit crimes in civilized societies.

 

[Elf Witch]

Many things which aren't natural also aren't evil, although I agree with you about the ghasts.

I have no problem with defending against actual threats, such as your village-munchers. Your example which I originally cited, however, involved a character specifically identified as good. In my view, the undead status of the character is no justification of the paladin murdering it.

Unless the paladin's god and the oaths he took say that he has the duty to destroy undead.

Lich's have their soul at least in the game that we played in with this undead slayer and the soul is trappped in the undead's body unable to continue its journey. The paladin frees the soul. In this game any sentient being could chose to be good or evil they were not trapped by what the monster manual says. So we came across a lich who was good. The paladin had a hugr dilemma about what to do he cast commune with his god who answered him and guide him to destroy the lich and free his soul so it could continue on its journey.

If the paladin had not done this he would have lost his paladinhood because he broke his oaths to his god. Now he could have atoned or choosen to follow a different god at this point. One in keeping with his now changed world view.

The DM explained this to the player so that he could make an informed choice.

BTW in this game no one was immortal reincarnation played a huge part of the theme of the game.

 

[Elf Witch]

There is a world of difference between a defendant being found guilty by a jury after due process of law, and a single "paladin" cutting him down on the street because he believed he was guilty of something.

There's a very good reason that police aren't allowed to summarily execute people who commit crimes in civilized societies.

That is because police don't have access to detect evil, discern lies and commune and aurgy spells.

I am not saying that a paladin should walk around the street just detecting evil and then when he gets a ping he pulls out his sword and kills the person.

I am saying that in a society that allows the paladin to be judge , jury and the final say on what punishment is due the paladin uses his abilities to get to the truth of the matter and then passes judgemment.


If I was a member of a society I would rather have a paladin judge me then take my chances with people who can be swayed by a silver tongued lawyer. Or have the verdict influenced because I am half orc and most people don't like half orcs at least with the paladin he has spells that can tell him if I am good or evil and these are not influenced by how he feels personally.

 

[Ozmar]

It's simple common sense. Goblins are common enough creatures that players will either know they attack human settlements straight out, or they'll be able to learn that information easily enough when they visit settlements that are near goblin lands. We're not talking about demons or something here - of course it's true that not that many people are going to know what a glabrezu is and what it does - but goblins?

But hey, if you want to make your players roleplay a long investigation and make Knowledge checks to learn that the recently attacked village that borders on goblin lands was, in fact, attacked by goblins, it's your game....

Reminds me of an anecdote.

DM asked us to make 10th-level Forgotten Realms characters for playing the City of the Spider-Queen mega-adventure. He stipulated that we were not to use knowledge of our planned adventure to make optimized, drow-killing characters. Sounds fair, right?

But he took it several steps farther. Our characters did not know anything about drow. We had never even heard of them. 10th-level adventurers. In Faerun. And we've never heard of drow. We had no clue what they were. So when we heard some dim rumors about mysterious creatures know as "drow", we concluded they must be some kind of half-dragon cow... dragon-cow = drow.

Strangely, the campaign never really took off.

Ozmar the Clueless

 

[Elf Witch]

But Miko didn't do any of those things here and you've been defending her.

I am defending her because I don't think she is evil. I think she is misinformed and that she acted without thinking. I have also been saying that she had reason to believe in Shojo guilt and that I can see why she did what she did. I totally disagree with the people feel that she has fallen to evil and that she had no motivations for what she was doing.

She overheard it from Shojo lips she saw with her own eyes that Belkar who is guilty of killingva paladin who is supposed to be in a cell is walking around free and armed.

I can see why she did what she did and I have said if this was game and not a comic I would think the DM was doing a pretty lousy job of DMing that he was railroading the paladin into falling. Which is why I have not really liked this whole Miko storyline.

Do I think she deserves to lose her paladin ability maybe if the law states that she has no right to pass judgement. The fact that she acted use her emotions instead of using her logic is also a reason to be strippped of her paladin powers. I do not think she has slipped to evil and I believe that she could atone for what she has done.

I also believe if Shojo lived or was brought back to life that he should also face charges for violating the law. It does not matter that he was doing it to save the world he still violated the law and needs to face the consquences of his choice of actions.

 

[Nifft]

But he took it several steps farther. Our characters did not know anything about drow. We had never even heard of them. 10th-level adventurers. In Faerun. And we've never heard of drow. We had no clue what they were. So when we heard some dim rumors about mysterious creatures know as "drow", we concluded they must be some kind of half-dragon cow... dragon-cow = drow.

Strangely, the campaign never really took off.

DROW-TIPPING DISCOURAGED!

What kind of world would it be if it were full of dragon-cows? More vegetarian, I'd think.

-- N

 

[Storm Raven]

I am defending her because I don't think she is evil. I think she is misinformed and that she acted without thinking. I have also been saying that she had reason to believe in Shojo guilt and that I can see why she did what she did. I totally disagree with the people feel that she has fallen to evil and that she had no motivations for what she was doing.

Except that most people here seem to disagree that she had reason to believe in Shojo's guilt. She had an entirely unreasonable belief. Her leaps of logic ("Shojo helped rig a trial, therefore he is in league with Xykon" and "Xykon is alive even though the OotS said they killed him, therefore the OotS is in league with Xykon" in a world where resurrections are so routine that they are sitting around the throne room waiting to have a nameless NPC wizard brought back from the dead) are quite simply unsupportable; seemingly the product of an unhinged mind. It would be the equivalent of saying something like "you rigged a trial to let a petty thief go, therefore you are in league with evil communists bent on subverting the government!" - a leap that simply makes no sense on any level. Her motivations, such as they are, are simply nonsensical. She may believe them, but her belief is pretty much irrelevant in an absolute alignment system like D&D uses. She may not have fallen to evil (yet, that will have to wait until she curses the gods for punishing her), but she has certainly knowingly commited an evil act.

 

[Felix]

I am defending her because I don't think she is evil.

A paladin can still be Lawful Good and fall; she doesn't have to be evil.

One evil act not changing people's alignments, and all that.

 

[Elf Witch]

Except that most people here seem to disagree that she had reason to believe in Shojo's guilt. She had an entirely unreasonable belief. Her leaps of logic ("Shojo helped rig a trial, therefore he is in league with Xykon" and "Xykon is alive even though the OotS said they killed him, therefore the OotS is in league with Xykon" in a world where resurrections are so routine that they are sitting around the throne room waiting to have a nameless NPC wizard brought back from the dead) are quite simply unsupportable; seemingly the product of an unhinged mind. It would be the equivalent of saying something like "you rigged a trial to let a petty thief go, therefore you are in league with evil communists bent on subverting the government!" - a leap that simply makes no sense on any level. Her motivations, such as they are, are simply nonsensical. She may believe them, but her belief is pretty much irrelevant in an absolute alignment system like D&D uses. She may not have fallen to evil (yet, that will have to wait until she curses the gods for punishing her), but she has certainly knowingly commited an evil act.

Just because most people agree on something does not make it right. Most polls showed that Americans thought OJ was gulity but a jury found him innocent.

I think a lot of people are using knowledge that Miko does not have access to. As the readers we are aware of everything that has happened she is not. I also think that some people are judging her actions based on a dislike of stick in the rump paladins and the fact that the OOTS are the good guys and we have been following their adventures from the start.

I have read that she should know more about Lichs because she has knowledge relgion so that would tell her that the OOTS was not lying when they said he was destroyed. But she is a multiclass paladin so how do we know that she has enough ranks if any in religion to know this.

If Miko does not know how lichs have to be destroyed then it is perfectly reasonable for her to form an opinion that the OOTS lied about destroyed him. And then wonder why did they lie what possible purpose could lying hold. Except as a cover to hide their allegience with the lich. And can Lich's be raised with spells?

Miko was told to bring them back for trial if Shojo really wanted to talk to them why not send a messanger with an offer of a lot of gold for them to come instead of the ruse of a trial. So there was a trial that now Miko knows was rigged. Why is it such unreasonable thought that she might wonder why Shojo did this. He had other ways to get them to come to Azure City so is it possible that he wanted a cover becuase he is indeed working with evil.

The point I am trying to make is simply this while I think Miko acted rashly and this lead to her paladin powers being stripped I don't think her reasoning is totally out of whack based on what she saw and heard.

I have played in games where I have gotten the DMs clues wrong and based on what I saw and heard I formed the wrong opinion. This is what I think the case is for Miko she based her opinion on the information that she had and yes on her emotions. I think her emotions colored a lot of her actions.

She had feelings for Roy and he rejected her so that had to co,lr how she felt. And to find out that her leader and someone who she really looked up to had lied, broken faith with the paladins that he himself had brought her to serve with had to feel like the ultimate betrayal. Even Hinjo felt betrayed by Shojo. Taking all these feelings into consideration and what she had heard I do not find it unreasonable that she would come to the conclusions that she did.

Where she made her mistake was not in gathering evidence to support her conclusions.