OotS 406

[Grog]

Unless, you know, it actually wasn't goblins. Perhaps it was something else pretending to be goblins. Perhaps the goblins attacked because the villagers were stealing their land, or murdering their kin. Again, it's those crazy roleplaying and story concepts...

We're talking about goblins here. You can make up as many alternate plotlines as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that goblins attack human/demi-human settlements, steal, take slaves, kill people, etc. This is per the Monster Manual. Goblins may behave differently in your campaign world, but that's not pertinent to the discussion here.

Again, I ask you to actually support the argument that you're making - which is that the PCs know the information contained in the writeups from the MM, without having the appropriate Knowledge skill.

Since I never said the PCs know the information contained in the writeups from the MM, you are arguing against a straw man here.

Sheesh.

What I actually said was that one particular section of the goblin entry in the MM describes the way goblins behave in the world, and since goblins are common monsters, this behavior is going to be common knowledge to many people in the world, since it directly or indirectly impacts upon them. Thus, this knowledge is likely going to be either already known by, or easily obtainable by, the PCs.

Common in what campaign world? Again, you're really making claims here you can't support.

They're supported by what's written in the Monster Manual, to wit (emphasis mine):

However, if (goblins) are left unchecked, their great numbers, rapid reproduction, and evil disposition enable them to overrun and despoil civilized areas.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The only reason she believes this is because she's actively trying to find an excuse to murder the OotS. It's a complete fabrication on her part.

That kind of psychoanalysis of a comic-book character would require some evidence for me to buy it. I don't see that in the narrative as presented.

Miko never really gave the OotS a fair chance, and never even bothered to think how Xykon can still be in existance (unlike Durkon, where it is for comedy value, she doesn't have much of an excuse to lack Knowledge (religion)).

Absolutely correct. IMHO, this is a personality issue rather than an alignment issue. (Actually, I could totally buy, given the portrayal of Miko's character, that she *doesn't* have ranks in Knowledge: religion).

IMHO, this strip emphasizes how inflexibility and fanaticism can cause problems beyond those related explicitly to alignment.

 

[Grog]

This is a matter of opinion and role play style. History certainly allowed for knights (which paladins are based on to ) to dispense the king's judgement. Priest could over rule the law of the land to enforce religious law.

If you don't want to allow paladins this right in your game then that is your choice.

And what happens when an innocent person is executed on the spot (as will inevitably happen at some point), either by genuine mistake, or malfeasance on the part of the paladin (as we saw with Miko here)? Does everyone just shrug, call it "collateral damage," and move on?

That might fly in a Lawful Evil society, but not a Lawful Good one.

 

[Storm Raven]

This is a matter of opinion and role play style. History certainly allowed for knights (which paladins are based on to ) to dispense the king's judgement. Priest could over rule the law of the land to enforce religious law.

And none of those people could conceivably be considered paladins, so the point is kind of moot.

 

[Sound of Azure]

And none of those people could conceivably be considered paladins, so the point is kind of moot in my game.

Fixed that for ya. Just tryin' to help.

 

[wingsandsword]

This is a matter of opinion and role play style. History certainly allowed for knights (which paladins are based on to ) to dispense the king's judgement. Priest could over rule the law of the land to enforce religious law.

The problem with just calling it "King's judgment" here with what she did was, she pronounced it on the King herself.

Saying a Paladin might have some right to pronounce sentence on a petty thief he witnesses pickpocketing, or upon a brigand who tries to rob him on the trail is one thing, to confront her sovereign in his throne room, accuse him openly of treason, ignore the calls of a fellow paladin to detain him for trial, then pronounce her sworn lord guilty of said treason, and strike him down as he sits on the throne she previously bowed before, unarmed and protesting his innocence . . .is completely different.

 

[Herobizkit]

We're talking about goblins here. You can make up as many alternate plotlines as you want, but it doesn't change the fact that goblins attack human/demi-human settlements, steal, take slaves, kill people, etc. This is per the Monster Manual. Goblins may behave differently in your campaign world, but that's not pertinent to the discussion here.

Strictly from this reading, I tend to agree with you, Grog. As written, intended for the generic carbon-copy D&D world, Goblins are Bad.

Now, change the word "Goblin" to "Human".

What does your Paladin do in your game? I'm going to wager a guess and say "Detect Evil". So now, your Paladin can kill a Goblin on sight but you have to "double-check" to make sure the normally(?) Good-aligned Human is Evil or not. This reeks of a form of racism that goes beyond the scope of Alignment in D&D, which is why I don't use alignment.

In MY games, Lawful and Good can be summed up thusly:
a) Don't hurt people or cause people to come to harm.
b) Don't take stuff that isn't yours or allow stuff to be taken from its rightful owners.
c) People who hurt others or take stuff that isn't theirs should be captured if possible, brought to local justice if possible, but the Paladin has the Divine right to execute a known and proven criminal.

Also in my games, the capital-E Evil and capital-G Good are reserved for outerplanar entities, Holy/Unholy artifacts, and sites where great Good/Evil have transpired (or the appropriate spells to create such sites have been cast).

 

[Elf Witch]

And what happens when an innocent person is executed on the spot (as will inevitably happen at some point), either by genuine mistake, or malfeasance on the part of the paladin (as we saw with Miko here)? Does everyone just shrug, call it "collateral damage," and move on?

That might fly in a Lawful Evil society, but not a Lawful Good one.

What happens in a society when an innocent person is executed because a jury found them guilty? Does thtis society suddenly become a lawful evil society?

At least in a DnD world you can rectify the situation this mistake and being a person back.

 

[Elf Witch]

The problem with just calling it "King's judgment" here with what she did was, she pronounced it on the King herself.

Saying a Paladin might have some right to pronounce sentence on a petty thief he witnesses pickpocketing, or upon a brigand who tries to rob him on the trail is one thing, to confront her sovereign in his throne room, accuse him openly of treason, ignore the calls of a fellow paladin to detain him for trial, then pronounce her sworn lord guilty of said treason, and strike him down as he sits on the throne she previously bowed before, unarmed and protesting his innocence . . .is completely different.

I was talking about one to view paladins in a game ,not that this is the way it is being written in Rich's comic.

 

[Elf Witch]

Strictly from this reading, I tend to agree with you, Grog. As written, intended for the generic carbon-copy D&D world, Goblins are Bad.

Now, change the word "Goblin" to "Human".

What does your Paladin do in your game? I'm going to wager a guess and say "Detect Evil". So now, your Paladin can kill a Goblin on sight but you have to "double-check" to make sure the normally(?) Good-aligned Human is Evil or not. This reeks of a form of racism that goes beyond the scope of Alignment in D&D, which is why I don't use alignment.

In MY games, Lawful and Good can be summed up thusly:
a) Don't hurt people or cause people to come to harm.
b) Don't take stuff that isn't yours or allow stuff to be taken from its rightful owners.
c) People who hurt others or take stuff that isn't theirs should be captured if possible, brought to local justice if possible, but the Paladin has the Divine right to execute a known and proven criminal.

Also in my games, the capital-E Evil and capital-G Good are reserved for outerplanar entities, Holy/Unholy artifacts, and sites where great Good/Evil have transpired (or the appropriate spells to create such sites have been cast).

Not that I disagree with everything you said but how do you handling looting in your game?

I do agree with you about the different rules for treating goblins and humans.