Grog said:
So in other words, paladins get to murder whoever they want to so long as there's an imminent threat on the horizon.
And given how fungible the definition of "imminent threat" is, you're basically saying that paladins can murder whoever they want to, whenever they want to.
Before we go any further in this discussion, why don't you tell us exactly what you think it takes for a paladin to fall. That would be extremely helpful.
First of all I have to say that the crap writen in the PHB is just that crap. It is one of the main reasons paladins are often not fun to play and cause problemsin the game.
It expects that paladin to answer to three masters, their god, the law and good. Sooner or later this is going to come into conflict with each other and the paladin is just screwed.
First of all I don't have modern 21 law or ethics in my game which is one of the big problems. People judge paladins based on todays morality like you don't kill prisoners, you don't execute without a trial, bigorty makes you evil, slavery is evil.
I have the player tell me how they see their paladin and who do they serve. A paladin of Pelor is going to be different that a paladin of St Cuthbert.
Then I ask them do they see themselves as more lawful or more good.
Then comes the code one that we work on together. This code is from the gods it is the divine law that a paladin follows. This is the code that if the paldin breaks will cause them to fall. It takes precedence over in law made by man.
Some general things will make a paldain fall in my game. Some examples stealing from a merchant because you don't want to pay the price he is asking for an item.
Lying in some cases like telling a priesoner that if he surrenders and tells you everything he knows that you will spare him knowing full well that you have no intention to do so.
Making a vow that you had no intention of keeping.
Using evil items and evil spells. Acting in a selfish self centered way for personal gain is another way for a paladin to fall.
I have not said anything about killing. Becuase this depends on the code and the god they serve and the society they live in. For example in one game there is a war going on between elves and humans. They are fighting a holy war over who has the right to occupy the most holy city the birthplace of the elven and human gods. Both sides have a legal claim both sets of gods want it for their followers. You have paladins on both sides they are obeying their gods and their codes.
Right now the elves have control of the city so the humans have it blockaded and are attacking any reinforcements or supplies that the elves are trying to get through, If the humans catch any elf trying to aid the city they face summary execuation. No trial no prisoner exchange just a swift death. It does not matter the reason it does not matter if the elf in question is not evil. The elves know this and know the risk before they try.
The human god that the paladin serves in my game is a god patterned on St Cuthbert a god who believes in divine retribution. His paladins follow law over good. They bring evil doers to justice they are tasked with being judge, jury and ex
ioner and they are leading the charge to return the city to the humans control. So a paladin of this order can kill an innocent elf who is breaking their law a leader in a throne room who has been judged by the paladin to have broken one the the gods laws.
Now this not mean that they can kill just because they feel like it they have to have astrong belief that the person has viloated the law. Take the Miko case if this was happening in my game Miko would not have done anything wrong becuase Shojo broke the law and admited it.
There is another human god based on Pelor her paladins are more intrested in doing good, helping the humans and protecting them. They kill to protect themselves and the humans under their protection but their order belives in the possibility of redemption (we use the rules from Exalted deeds to turn evil to good) they are not allowed to kill if there is another way. A lot of their holy weapons have the ability to use subdual damage rather than lethal damage. If Miko was of this order in my game she would have fallen because Shojo was not armed he was not currently trying to harm any under her protection and even though he broke the law she needed to offer him the chance to atone for what he had done.
The rules of this goddess only apply to humans and not elves so these paladins can slay any elf they find trying to aid the enemy without losing their paladinhood.
As for your question about "imminent threat" there is a hobgoblin army led by a Litch about to attack. If your code states that you bring lawbreakers to justice and your code allows you to judge and decide punishment then yes a paladin could very well kill a leader breaking the law as quickly as possible because there is not time to deal with a trial. There is no time at the present to deal with the distraction that a trial would cause.
I can also see a paladin locking the leader up again in this situation I would look to see what the paaldin in question's code was what evidence they had and why they were doing what they were doing.
