OotS 406

[Imp]

Ah, brap, he went with the fireworks. I guess I am more impish than the Giant, then...

(Yeah, Belkar's obviously evil, but he gets a kick out of plausible deniability, what with sheets of lead and all...)

 

[orsal]

Evil creatures fear the

Buzzz! That's too many
Syllables. Thanks for playing.
Try again some time.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Buzzz! That's too many
Syllables.

Not any more!

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Evil creatures fear
Radiation from my brain.
Try a hands-free kit.

Nice.

"Paladin and Monk!
Fear my saves! Also, I can
kill you with my feet."

Cheers, -- N

 

[ruleslawyer]

So in other words, paladins get to murder whoever they want to so long as there's an imminent threat on the horizon.

You say murder, I say execution.

Look at it through Miko's eyes for a second. She *genuinely* believes (and, IMHO, it's not a convenient fiction; she seems quite motivated about this) that Shojo has betrayed the ideals of the Sapphire Guard and conspired with Xykon to leave the city open to being overrun by an evil lich-led horde. She's just heard a discussion between Shojo and Roy that plausibly seems to back this up. If Shojo is a traitor, then he is no longer the legitimate authority. If Shojo is no longer the legitimate authority, then Miko a) is not required to obey him and b) is the ranking official responsible for determining liability and culpability in the city. She has the right to try and convict Shojo under the laws of the Sapphire Guard.

Now, the problems with this are threefold: First, there's no reason to just go ahead and slay Shojo instead of arresting him. What's he going to do if he remains alive? Moreover, he may have valuable info as to what exactly is going on. Second, Miko is refusing to listen to anyone else's input; this is less an issue of law or good than of a simple rule of reason. Third, Miko is showing no mercy, which has been a problem with her from the get-go. So I buy how she could fall, but I have a hard time seeing it as a no-brainer.

 

[Storm Raven]

Look at it through Miko's eyes for a second.

But we don't have to. In D&D, alignment and what is good and evil are not relative. The fact that Miko was mistaken doesn't make her actions "not-evil" or "not-chaotic".

She *genuinely* believes (and, IMHO, it's not a convenient fiction; she seems quite motivated about this) that Shojo has betrayed the ideals of the Sapphire Guard and conspired with Xykon to leave the city open to being overrun by an evil lich-led horde.

Her belief is irrelevant.

She's just heard a discussion between Shojo and Roy that plausibly seems to back this up.

If you make huge paranoid conspiracy leaps that make no sense and are entirely implausible. No, her belief is not "plausible". Her belief is deranged.

If Shojo is a traitor, then he is no longer the legitimate authority. If Shojo is no longer the legitimate authority, then Miko a) is not required to obey him and b) is the ranking official responsible for determining liability and culpability in the city. She has the right to try and convict Shojo under the laws of the Sapphire Guard.

No, Hinjo is. And, even if she is the legitimate ruler of the Guard, given the elaborate trial required for the OotS, she likely does not have that right.

Her fall, it seems, is a no-brainer for most people.

 

[Gez]

So I buy how she could fall, but I have a hard time seeing it as a no-brainer.

She would have fallen if she had killed Belkar, way back then.

So her fall WAS a no-brainer now. If killing Belkar (given the circumstances and the evil nature of Belkar) was enough to make her fall, there's no way in Hell (or rather in Heaven, because the way in Hell, Miko found it, teehee) she could have not fallen now.

 

[Hypersmurf]

"Paladin and Monk!
Fear my saves! Also, I can
kill you with my feet."

Divine Grace is gone!
Smite Evil license revoked!
I blame the halfling.

-Hyp.

 

[ruleslawyer]

But we don't have to. In D&D, alignment and what is good and evil are not relative. The fact that Miko was mistaken doesn't make her actions "not-evil" or "not-chaotic".

Her belief is rrelevant.

Not true. Her belief about the nature of right and wrong would be irrelevant, because, as you point out, good and evil in the D&D universe are not relative. However, her belief about the *facts* (which is what I was commenting on) is quite relevant.

Let me put it this way. A pit fiend charms a harmless peasant into wreaking havoc and casts a seeming spell over him to make him look like a barbed devil. An adventurer sees this happening and attacks the "barbed devil," killing him. Is that an evil deed?

In short, intentions count. Mistake of fact can shape intentions dramatically; the law recognizes this quite strongly in the establishment of standards for determining mens rea (for criminal culpability) and intentional/reckless/negligent conduct standards (for civil liability).

If you make huge paranoid conspiracy leaps that make no sense and are entirely implausible. No, her belief is not "plausible". Her belief is deranged.

Ah, but that's the question. I'm not fully convinced that her belief is implausible. I don't think it's quite set up that way.

Miko knows that Belkar is evil. She knows that the OotS is guilty, and that the trial was faked. She knows that Shojo has been lying to the paladins about his true intentions from the get-go, and she knows that he doesn't follow the code of the Sapphire Guard, even though he pretends to (or at least makes no representations to the contrary). Shojo's deceptions are even enough to shock Hinjo. Miko also knows that Xykon's army is on the way; she believes (not completely implausibly) that the OotS is in allegiance with Xykon, and now she's overhearing a bunch of potentially nefarious-seeming plotting going on. I don't think this is an implausible conspiracy theory; I think it's a vast, tragic misunderstanding.

No, Hinjo is. And, even if she is the legitimate ruler of the Guard, given the elaborate trial required for the OotS, she likely does not have that right.

To the first: Hinjo is not. Miko is his superior. The only scenario under which Hinjo would be rightful leader is if Shojo's appointment of him as heir is legitimate. If Shojo's rule is not legitimate, then neither is his determination of the succession.

As to the second: You're absolutely right. As I pointed out in my post, this is where I think Miko goes too far. She's doing the same thing vis-a-vis Shojo as she was about to do with Belkar: Violate his right of due process. *That's* what I think should cost her paladinhood. But the idea that she's wilfully ignoring the facts is a bit hard to swallow for me.

 

[delericho]

Um, because the behavior of common monsters is common knowledge?

Common knowledge is very often wrong. And if Dave the farmer wants Bob the farmer out of the way, then he might well consider that that there goblin tribe makes for a very convincing patsy...

Woe betide the paladin who places too much stock in 'common knowledge'.