OotS 406

[Nifft]

Ooo! Top of page is mine!

 

[Hypersmurf]

What if in a sci-fi espionage game a special taskforce agent charged into the White House one day and popped a cap in the president's forehead just because the agent found out that the president had rigged a suspected terrorists trial, so he believed that the President must be a terrorist doppelganger plotting to facilitate the overthrow of the US?

Why, that's so simple!
Rocks fall. Evèryone dies.
The classic response.

-Hyp.

 

[Grog]

Ah, so everyone is an expert investigator, then?

"Hey Bob, what happened here?"

"Goblin attack."

It hardly takes an expert investigator to unearth that kind of information.

With comprehensive knowledge of battle tactics, creature behaviors and the like? They somehow know the paragraphs from the MM inside and out?

Oh, please. Knowing that goblins attack human settlements is not the same thing as knowing the paragraphs from the MM inside and out, and you know it.

And again, since you're trying to incorrectly bring rules into this - page cite, please?

It's simple common sense. Goblins are common enough creatures that players will either know they attack human settlements straight out, or they'll be able to learn that information easily enough when they visit settlements that are near goblin lands. We're not talking about demons or something here - of course it's true that not that many people are going to know what a glabrezu is and what it does - but goblins?

But hey, if you want to make your players roleplay a long investigation and make Knowledge checks to learn that the recently attacked village that borders on goblin lands was, in fact, attacked by goblins, it's your game....

 

[Jim Hague]

"Hey Bob, what happened here?"

"Goblin attack."

It hardly takes an expert investigator to unearth that kind of information.

Unless, you know, it actually wasn't goblins. Perhaps it was something else pretending to be goblins. Perhaps the goblins attacked because the villagers were stealing their land, or murdering their kin. Again, it's those crazy roleplaying and story concepts...

Oh, please. Knowing that goblins attack human settlements is not the same thing as knowing the paragraphs from the MM inside and out, and you know it.

Again, I ask you to actually support the argument that you're making - which is that the PCs know the information contained in the writeups from the MM, without having the appropriate Knowledge skill.

It's simple common sense. Goblins are common enough creatures that players will either know they attack human settlements straight out, or they'll be able to learn that information easily enough when they visit settlements that are near goblin lands. We're not talking about demons or something here - of course it's true that not that many people are going to know what a glabrezu is and what it does - but goblins?

But hey, if you want to make your players roleplay a long investigation and make Knowledge checks to learn that the recently attacked village that borders on goblin lands was, in fact, attacked by goblins, it's your game....

Common in what campaign world? Again, you're really making claims here you can't support.

 

[Grog]

Now this not mean that they can kill just because they feel like it they have to have astrong belief that the person has viloated the law. Take the Miko case if this was happening in my game Miko would not have done anything wrong becuase Shojo broke the law and admited it.

This is where we differ. Murder, even of a lawbreaker, is never acceptable for a paladin. There may be some form of dispensation for "frontier justice" if the paladin is unable to bring someone back for trial, but when a paladin is in a city, as Miko was, it's his/her duty to arrest the lawbreaker and deliver them to the authorities so they may be tried and punished under the laws of the land.

That's really the only way to do it. Most Lawful Good societies are not going to tolerate church (and possibly state)-sanctioned murder for very long. Brutal punishment dispensed on the spot by knights of the church/state is a hallmark of a Lawful Evil society, not a Lawful Good one.

And it's also worth noting that Miko's "strong belief" was based on nothing more than a lot of jumping to conclusions on her part, but that's been said over and over again already.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on paladins.

 

[Nifft]

Unless, you know, it actually wasn't goblins.

Lurk Slystalker: "It wasn't goblins?!"

Old Bjorn Kairnoble: "Goblins ride their wargs single-file... to hide their numbers."

-- N

 

[Felix]

Unless, you know, it actually wasn't goblins. Perhaps it was something else pretending to be goblins.

These tracks are side-by-side; sand people always ride single-file to hide their numbers!

EDIT: DAMNIT, Nifft!

 

[Elf Witch]

If someone playing a paladin starts hacking on unarmed old man who is the leader of her country based 90% on the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence (the only thing that Miko knows for a fact about Shogo, rather than from her own guesses, is that he is a liar who doesn't respect the Paladin's oath to Soon) I'd avoid inviting him into any future games. I like players who actually think. What if in a sci-fi espionage game a special taskforce agent charged into the White House one day and popped a cap in the president's forehead just because the agent found out that the president had rigged a suspected terrorists trial, so he believed that the President must be a terrorist doppelganger plotting to facilitate the overthrow of the US? Dumb...plain dumb.

Even if all the things that Miko believed were true, she chose a pretty stupid way to handle the situation, but either way Miko was not railroaded into believing anything other than that her ruler wasn't lawful. Everything else she assumed on her own.

If it was in game it could be considered railroading. Miko is sent by her leader (the DM) to bring to trial this band of NPCs for a crime of weaking the stability of the universe. One of them often acts in what might be considered an evil way by some of what he says and his actions. When paladin tried to derect evil she cannot.

Now one of the members kills a paldin and is supposedly in jail for it.

The paladin is captured by the evil undead escapes finds out that they early warning have been destroyed and the towers protecting the city have been destroyed. As she is hurring to tell the leader of the city all this. The DM says at the door you hear that the trial was a sham, that the leader has been lying all along to the palasins of the city and when you look in the room you see an NPC who killed a paladin who is supposed to be in jail free and walking around armed.

As the player you know that the halfling has some kind of item or spell up that blocks detect spells so the fact that you are not dectecting evil maybe a DM trick. Also the DM played the leader of the nPCs at first as falling for your character and then turning on your character.

So player makes a decision leaps to a conclusion and goes to smite evil on who she percives to be the BBEG.

I could see the discussion now. You have some people saying this was a bad case of DMing or you would have people saying that the player didn't pick up the clues so its the players fault and then it would evolve into a evil vs good thread and why paaldins suck the fun out of the game and that is why they don't allow them, to this is why I got rid of alignment in my game to a debate on just what makes a paladin fall.

 

[Felix]

this is why I got rid of alignment in my game

With whom do you agree?

 

[Elf Witch]

This is where we differ. Murder, even of a lawbreaker, is never acceptable for a paladin. There may be some form of dispensation for "frontier justice" if the paladin is unable to bring someone back for trial, but when a paladin is in a city, as Miko was, it's his/her duty to arrest the lawbreaker and deliver them to the authorities so they may be tried and punished under the laws of the land.

That's really the only way to do it. Most Lawful Good societies are not going to tolerate church (and possibly state)-sanctioned murder for very long. Brutal punishment dispensed on the spot by knights of the church/state is a hallmark of a Lawful Evil society, not a Lawful Good one.

And it's also worth noting that Miko's "strong belief" was based on nothing more than a lot of jumping to conclusions on her part, but that's been said over and over again already.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts on paladins.

This is a matter of opinion and role play style. History certainly allowed for knights (which paladins are based on to ) to dispense the king's judgement. Priest could over rule the law of the land to enforce religious law.

If you don't want to allow paladins this right in your game then that is your choice.