OotS 406

[Pbartender]

Not to continue this line of discussion, but I don't think you can say he's actually "cut in half" based on the drawing, especially with his big paunch and all this stick-figure jobbiness. The *throne* is what Miko did the most damage to.

No... Sorry... Take another look.

If it weren't for the little black line that denotes the right-hand side of Lord Shojo's tunic, he would be cut in half.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Hold on... I didn't say that she wasn't doing things that would turn into an ex-paladin, but that's she's very strictly and inflexibly following the Paladin's Code while wearing a big set of moral blinders.

1. A paladin must be of lawful good alignment. I think it's safe to assume has been and still is, technically, Lawful Good, though her DM is likely considering changing that in the near future.

2. ...and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act. Thus far, Miko has never willingly commited an evil act. She has acted against good aligned characters, she has commited acts that have unwittingly furthered the evil plans of others, she has acted out of vengeange, anger and hatred, but she has not, technically, done anything evil... yet.

Willingly |= knowingly. She has willingly committed an evil act. She just didn't know that the act was evil at the time. When she finds out, she'll probably throw a big hissy fit like she always does, blame all her problems on others, and try to kill everyone. Typical.

Arguing that a paladin must know an act is evil in order to suffer the consequences of performing it is like arguing that ignorance of the law is an adequate defence. It's not. You do the crime, you do the time...as a fighter with no bonus feats.

 

[Aeric]

The idea of someone becoming an "instant blackguard" is a bit silly to me. Being a blackguard is not as simple as falling from grace as a fallen paladin; you have to actively pledge yourself to the powers of evil. The "peaceful contact with an evil outsider" is essentially the Fausian deal wherein the future blackguard offers his or her services to that creature's master (or possibly to the creature itself, if it's powerful enough) in return for supernatural power. It's not something I think Miko would ever do. She, like the best villains in literature, genuinely believes that she is doing the good and right thing. Blackguards know that what they are doing is evil, and embrace it.

Now, I can see Miko becoming a blackguard, but it would take a bit more than simply losing her paladin status. I think if she does what she thinks is the good act (killing Lord Shojo), what she believes the gods want her to do, and then loses her powers because of it, she will become totally disillusioned with the paladin order. At that point, she is ripe for the forces of evil to sneak in and with honeyed words convince her to join the other team. That's how I would play it, at least.

Now watch, after all of this discussion, she gets capped in Monday's script.

I can't wait!

 

[lukelightning]

What if he's secretly her father?

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

I think the old guy was evil.

I mean, come on, "Convenient Morality"? This is typical villain-speak. He circumvented justice for his own expedience, he betrayed those who put trust in him, and he abused his power.

He did these things in order to help save the world from total annihilation, and to keep the country running. I can understand where a hereditary ruler with his country's interests in mind is coming from when he says that sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to make sure the place is still standing at the end of the day. It's not really good, but it's also sure as hell not evil. He's not in it for himself, he's doing what he thinks is necessary to ensure that his country doesn't go to hell in a handbasket. That he sometimes uses deceit and other questionable methods (but nothing definitely evil) is hardly a basis for calling him a villain. He's neutral at worst, and is probably a really pragmatic Chaotic Good.

 

[Elf Witch]

Of course if she had dected evil and then smited you would get all the paladin haters going detect evil is not good enough for all she knew the poor man had a spell that cursed him with dectecting evil even though he was good.

Miko has lost it but I can see her point in not believing in the laws of her land. She just overheard that the last trial was a sham.

I think Miko was put in one of those favorite situations love to put paladins in. Let's throw all this moral dilemma at the paladin and see kf she fails.

 

[Elf Witch]

He did these things in order to help save the world from total annihilation, and to keep the country running. I can understand where a hereditary ruler with his country's interests in mind is coming from when he says that sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done to make sure the place is still standing at the end of the day. It's not really good, but it's also sure as hell not evil. He's not in it for himself, he's doing what he thinks is necessary to ensure that his country doesn't go to hell in a handbasket. That he sometimes uses deceit and other questionable methods (but nothing definitely evil) is hardly a basis for calling him a villain. He's neutral at worst, and is probably a really pragmatic Chaotic Good.

He practiced the ends justify the means and that is something a paladin has a hard time wrapping their mind around because it is something that a paladin should never do.

 

[Pbartender]

Arguing that a paladin must know an act is evil in order to suffer the consequences of performing it is like arguing that ignorance of the law is an adequate defence. It's not. You do the crime, you do the time...as a fighter with no bonus feats.

Come now... If that's the case, then Miko's DM is being an plain and simple.

I think we've all known DMs who've treated their paladins like this in the past, and while to a certain degree moral ambiguity to the decisions a paladin faces is fun and interesting, purposefully screwing over the paladin with a Good/Evil bait-and-switch is just mean and is the sort of situation that prevents players from ever playing a particular class or race ever again.

It's not so much that Miko might have done something evil-ish, intentional or not, but the fact that she refuses, no matter what, to ever admit that she might have been wrong. Her player likely insists that she is still following the Paladin's Code -- but from the DM's side fo the table, she probably isn't.

The comic is echoing and emphasizing what is likely an out-of-game arguement that's happening between Miko's player and the the DM over the interpretation of the Paladin's code. We've all seen this sort of thing happen ourselves over one bit of rules text or another.

I'm not particularly fond of Miko, or how she portrays paladins, but to use the words of Obi-Wan: She still is following the Paladin's Code... from a certain point of view.

 

[ruleslawyer]

No... Sorry... Take another look.

If it weren't for the little black line that denotes the right-hand side of Lord Shojo's tunic, he would be cut in half.

I don't agree. That cut goes about halfway into his body, but there's a bit of space between the right-hand side of his tunic and where the blade ends up. Anyway, as I said, that's an artifact of the stick-figure drawing, so I'm perfectly willing to believe he's dead. But not necessarily, and Rich may make some sort of joke about hit points out of it.

 

[Voadam]

Willingly |= knowingly. She has willingly committed an evil act. She just didn't know that the act was evil at the time. When she finds out, she'll probably throw a big hissy fit like she always does, blame all her problems on others, and try to kill everyone. Typical.

Arguing that a paladin must know an act is evil in order to suffer the consequences of performing it is like arguing that ignorance of the law is an adequate defence. It's not. You do the crime, you do the time...as a fighter with no bonus feats.

It was obviously a willing act. She meant to strike him down.

I would argue that though she did the act willingly, it is not necessarily an evil act and I would therefore not as a DM, remove her paladin powers.

Whether the act of 'striking down someone she (unreasonably) believes is a hidden evil who betrayed a sacred trust to protect the safety of the entire world and therefore she believes is a current ongoing threat to the safety of the world' is evil.

I would not.