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OotS 448
- Thread starter Ridley's Cohort
- Start date
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
All the preperation in the world wouldn't have helped the Sapphire Guard if they never had high enough spell casters to create the really good defences. And they clearly lacked it, as the best they can do in casting is Teleport (only one Wizard who can do it) or Resurrection.
But really vaguely. I mean, a 8th level spell is only very very vaguely a cantrip.Korgoth said:
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Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Mustrum_Ridcully said:
And technically, he no longer has a member...
Victim
First Post
Klaus said:No one is asking that. But if you write yourself into a scene that *has* to be handwaived, you might as well not have written the scene at all. Write a scene that doesn't *have* to be handwaived. If this scene is the purpose of the Sapphire Guard, they'd have to be extremely well-prepared, with stuff like Prayer (+1 luck to saves), Magic Circle Against Evil (+2 resistance bonus to saves), Eagle's Splendor (+2 bonus to saves through Divine Grace)... If Xykon has Cha 20, the save DC for the Symbol is 23. A 6th-level Paladin with Wis 12 and Cha 14 and the above effects will have a Will save of +10. More than 35% of the paladins present should have simply passed the save. That would be something about 15 Paladins (without factoring in those higher than 6th level). Of the 25 that fail their saves, 4 attack the caster anyway (as Act Normal and Attack the Caster), 6 attack the nearest creature (who in turn attack back, taking 12 Paladins out of the battle) and the rest babble about.
Rich did awesome strips for a while, but this one was very badly written.
Plus the Paladins would need a Spot check to be able to see the rune in that bouncing ball, and we all know Spot is a cross-class skill to Paladins.
Amazingly, spells have finite durations. Xykon could have entered the throne room from basically before the first arrow was fired up to after battle ends (presumeably hours later). So when do you cast your short duration buffs like prayer to avoid wasting them? Xykon turning Tsukiko helps confuse matters, since if they hear the sounds of battle progressing through the keep, they may make incorrect assumptions about the time of Xykon's arrival.
Moreover, DC 23 for the Symbol is very much a low ball estimate - it assumes a ~14 starting stat, most of his level up points, his lich bonus to CHA, and no spell focus feats (reasonable given what we know). Without any unusual stuff (instead, merely very expensive stuff), Xykon could have 18 base CHA, +5 level, +5 book (haha, it's treasure the PCs can't get!), +2 race, and a +6 item, the DC is 31. Even with a buffed +10 save, the pallies are still screwed. Granted, the actuality is problably less extreme - Xykon lost a bunch of stuff in his first defeat so any Cloak of Charisma he possessed is probably toast.
Someone on RPGnet also mentioned that the movement of the ball may cause it to leave and re-enter the area of the paladins, thereby forcing a save each time the ball comes within 60 ft - possibly many times as it ricochets about the room. I'm not sure that a bouncy ball would have that much bounce to it though - it seems like it'd get 1 pass through the room at most before running of steam.
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Klaus said:
True. But keep in mind that Xykon can probably boost his DC's higher relatively via the same means than the paladins can. And I also suspect that at most only 1 or 2 of the NPC's in that room are 10th level - this of course is total speculation, so its impossible to know one way or another. I see the Order as being around 12th level, and Miko could take them down with circumstances in her favor - so I'd put her at 15th or so. Hinjo is the second best Paladin, but I don't get teh sense that he's more than 12th or so himself, as Roy was more effective versus Miko when she turned. The next best Paladin is probably around 10th, and I'd double the number for every 2 levels lower than that - so 1 10th level, 2 8th level, etc.
I'd guess more than half of the NPC's in that room are 6th level or 5th level. I can't base that on anything, really, just how I would work things up if I were DM'ing.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Neither of these spells has a long duration, so they would need to know in advance when Xykon (or anyone else) would enter the throne room. The battle at the castle walls could take minutes or hours before any hostile might be get through.Klaus said:
22 is the minimum save possible, assuming that Xykon had no spells, feat or equipment to boost it further, and had never bothered to advance his charisma.
We don't really know the ability point generation used with the PCs & NPCs (but it must be quite generous, since Roy is strong, smart, charismatic and tough). Assuming even a ungenerous starting charisma of 15, +3 points from levels, +4 from a Cloak of Charisma, and +2 from a Tome of Influence and Leadership (all values that do not indicate a truly maxed NPC), he has a total charisma score of 24, meaning all saving throw DCs are at 25. Only a 35 % chance to make it.
If he is really a epic level NPC (20 level Sorceror + Lich Template), he would probably have a Cloak of Charisma +6, 5 Ability Points and a Tome of Leadership +4, boosting the DC by another 3 points to 28 (meaning a 20 % chance of a successful saving throw)
And that's only for 10th level Paladins. From what I saw in the battle, "the troops" weren't even that high in level. They died to quick fighting each other (the first dead in the first round of insanity, if I saw it correctly). Most of the high level seemed to make their save, but that weren't exactly many of them.
PoeticJustice
First Post
I'm confused by the fact that everybody seems to expect a better showing from the Sapphire Guard when 2things have already been established that would seem to prohibit this.
1) They're not terribly creative, as shown in the previous strips dealing with Three Xykons. Armed with his fiendish creativity, Xykon was at an advantage to formulate a plan that would effectively neutralize the defenses arrayed against him.
In other words... yes, they were prepared. They thought a spellcaster was going to come in spells blazing and prepped for that tactic. They disrupted spells, probably had some other stuff going on that we didn't know about. They could even have had anti-enchantment contingencies, but neither they nor anyone else but Xykon could have predicted they'd get hit by a Symbol of Insanity multiple times all at once. That's why they failed.
2) They're NPCs. Their role is to get a rise out of the party, which is what's going to happen once they get to the throne room. I think this was a good way to establish Xykon as really evil and really clever, which is more valuable to the plot than some kind of pointless struggle.
You can argue whether or not the bouncy ball tactic is sound by the rules, but I think that's an idiotic vein of contention. The DM's word goes. If that means V can buy potions of Heroism at a stupidly discounted price and that Sylphs are medium instead of small, it may also mean that shenanigans like this happen from time to time.
1) They're not terribly creative, as shown in the previous strips dealing with Three Xykons. Armed with his fiendish creativity, Xykon was at an advantage to formulate a plan that would effectively neutralize the defenses arrayed against him.
In other words... yes, they were prepared. They thought a spellcaster was going to come in spells blazing and prepped for that tactic. They disrupted spells, probably had some other stuff going on that we didn't know about. They could even have had anti-enchantment contingencies, but neither they nor anyone else but Xykon could have predicted they'd get hit by a Symbol of Insanity multiple times all at once. That's why they failed.
2) They're NPCs. Their role is to get a rise out of the party, which is what's going to happen once they get to the throne room. I think this was a good way to establish Xykon as really evil and really clever, which is more valuable to the plot than some kind of pointless struggle.
You can argue whether or not the bouncy ball tactic is sound by the rules, but I think that's an idiotic vein of contention. The DM's word goes. If that means V can buy potions of Heroism at a stupidly discounted price and that Sylphs are medium instead of small, it may also mean that shenanigans like this happen from time to time.
Is it just me -- a relative newcomer to the strip, and thus threads regarding it -- or does nothing suck the fun out of the comic like over-analyzed mechanical explanations for stuff that happens in-panel? i mean, i realize that the whole point is that it runs by the rules, but isn't it enough to say, "hey, he cast symbol of insanity on those paladins and they all failed their saves. GUFAW!"?
