D&D 5E Open Interpretation Inspirational Healing Compromise.

[jayoungr]

Of course, adding in another fighter with action surge would also cause a large percentage increase in damage for the party. As long as the Warlord is trading action on a roughly 1:1 basis (Warlord's action to give another character an action), it can't be much less balanced than adding another character of any other sort.

Depending on the design, it could. The designers could do that (let the Warlord grant full unrestricted actions while taking an action himself, presumably 1/rest like Action Surge), and count on DMs to manage the effect to suit their campaigns (it's within the 5e design paradigm to throw caution to the winds like that), or they could be careful about what actions could be granted.

Okay, I think that part makes sense to me now. The question is what the warlord is spending in order to hand out the extra possibilities to party members--correct?

Also, Tony, I see that I missed an earlier comment of yours on something else I said:

It really shouldn't be. The game already has the Cleric, Bard, Druid, Paladin & Ranger as classes that use magic (mostly spells) to contribute support to their party ranging from fantastic to adequate depending on choice of class and emphasis on that mode of contribution (and those classes can also all but ignore support if that's their concept). For a world where support needs to be exclusively magical, there is already lavish support and a wealth of options.

It sounds like you think I was contradicting you, but I was actually trying to make your point to the previous poster there. Cbwjm was saying "who cares, they're just hit points and ways to restore hit points"--and if everyone took that attitude, then no one would think it was important to have a non-magical healing option.

 

[El Mahdi]

...[those roles] don't need to be filled using the same mechanical notion 4e used

I agree.

Inspiration (for example) could be seen as pure healing...

...or just effective healing - as I've presented before. If the effects of wounds are mitigated, then the Hit Points are restored even if the wounds themselves (cuts, bruises, etc.) still persist. That's not temporary Hit Points; those are real, physical, Hit Points.

Inspiration...could be seen as...spending a HD...

Doesn't work within the paradigms of 5E. Hit Dice are a far too limited resource to allow a Warlord to provide Hit Point recovery. Much as a Cleric helps extend the adventuring day through Healing, a Warlord needs to be able to do the same. Maybe not as much, but to an extent. Using HD for the inspirational recovery prevents it from affecting the daily Hit Point economy. All it does do is allow using Hit Dice in combat. From the feedback I've collected from Warlord fans, that isn't enough.

Inspiration...could be seen as...granting PCs a pool of temporary hp.

Also doesn't work within the paradigms of 5E. Temporary Hit Points cannot rouse a character from 0 Hit Points. There's just no getting around that without changing the fundamental rules of 5E. Not to mention that being able to rouse a character from 0 HP is also a fundamental aspect of the concept, as expressed in the feedback provided by Warlord fans.

Just because warlords healed real hp in 4e doesn't mean they must do the same in 5e.

You're right. Warlords don't need to restore real hit points just because they did in 4E. Warlord Inspiration needs to restore real Hit Points because it's part of the Warlord concept - A fundamental part of the concept as expressed by Warlord fans.

Again, I don't think "restore real hp via Inspiration" = Warlord class.

Well, you're in the minority on this (that is, in the minority as concerns Warlord fans).



So, now it's your turn to answer a question: Why are you against the Warlord providing real, physical, Hit Point recovery through inspiration? Is it personal preference? Mechanical considerations? Or other?

 

[Guest 6801328]

More non-magical forms of contribution to the party's success would mean that the game could support more styles of play. The game is already thick with alternative magical ways of making the same support (hp management, buffing, de-buffing, action management, &c), single-target-control, battlefield-control, exploration, tank, defense-of-others, utility, blasting and other contributions so there's no plausible, valid reason for denying the addition of some ways to make more types of contributions non-magically.

In another thread nobody was able to answer this question very well, so I'll try here: can you describe to me how "non-magical healing" works that does not dictate the recipient's state of mind? Most versions I see of this are "Your allies find inspiration in your leadership" or "Your words cause your allies to have renewed hope" or "You command your companion to" or things of that nature. That seems to suggest my character admires and looks up to this warlord, whether or not that's what I want my character to think.

My objection to the general warlord concept is not tactical bonuses or non-magical healing, but that the class is described, fluffed, and even named to suggest that other player characters look up to, admire, and follow him. The archetypes offered (coach, officer, team captain) are all examples where one individual has some kind authority over, or at the very least earned respect from, the other(s).

Can you offer any fluff (not the least of which is a less obnoxious class name) that suggests equality with the other heroes, not unearned leadership of them?

And, yes, the reply I always hear is "just fluff it however you want". Well, if it's that easy then:
1) What exactly is that alternate fluff?
2) Why can't it be the official fluff, instead of the "my hero is the boss of yours" version?

EDIT: And to circle around, my objection is not to inspirational healing in general (I'm fine with Second Wind) but rather that when it's applied to somebody other than self it always seems to come with a description that roleplays somebody else's character for them.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In another thread nobody was able to answer this question very well, so I'll try here: can you describe to me how "non-magical healing" works that does not dictate the recipient's state of mind? Most versions I see of this are "Your allies find inspiration in your leadership" or "Your words cause your allies to have renewed hope" or "You command your companion to" or things of that nature. That seems to suggest my character admires and looks up to this warlord, whether or not that's what I want my character to think.

My objection to the general warlord concept is not tactical bonuses or non-magical healing, but that the class is described, fluffed, and even named to suggest that other player characters look up to, admire, and follow him. The archetypes offered (coach, officer, team captain) are all examples where one individual has some kind authority over, or at the very least earned respect from, the other(s).

Can you offer any fluff (not the least of which is a less obnoxious class name) that suggests equality with the other heroes, not unearned leadership of them?

And, yes, the reply I always hear is "just fluff it however you want". Well, if it's that easy then:
1) What exactly is that alternate fluff?
2) Why can't it be the official fluff, instead of the "my hero is the boss of yours" version?

EDIT: And to circle around, my objection is not to inspirational healing in general (I'm fine with Second Wind) but rather that when it's applied to somebody other than self it always seems to come with a description that roleplays somebody else's character for them.

so if it was His words can cause your body to push past it's pain tolerance?

or wait... what if it was just "Inspireing word" the warlord uses his bonus action and you can spend a HD...

 

[Guest 6801328]

so if it was His words can cause your body to push past it's pain tolerance?

You mean magic? Fine, no problem.

or wait... what if it was just "Inspireing word" the warlord uses his bonus action and you can spend a HD...

You mean without any descriptive text? Just a title and a mechanic? Yeah, sure. But I doubt that would make it into an official class.

 

[Aldarc]

Can you offer any fluff (not the least of which is a less obnoxious class name) that suggests equality with the other heroes, not unearned leadership of them?

You are a team player who knows that the whole is greater than the mere sum of its parts. With a tactical mind, you focus on coordinating your own effort with allies to win the battle efficiently while incurring as little harm as possible. You inspire cooperation, determination, and confidence through your tactical foresight, hard-wrought teamwork, and whatever luck you can muster.

EDIT: And to circle around, my objection is not to inspirational healing in general (I'm fine with Second Wind) but rather that when it's applied to somebody other than self it always seems to come with a description that roleplays somebody else's character for them.

This is news to me. Why have you never told us this before? I don't even know you anymore Elfcrusher!

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You mean magic? Fine, no problem.



You mean without any descriptive text? Just a title and a mechanic? Yeah, sure. But I doubt that would make it into an official class.

I doubt it too... I hope the people who get paid can find a way to write fluff that wont get either side mad... so no magic no forcing emotions on others...

 

[Guest 6801328]

You are a team player who knows that the whole is greater than the mere sum of its parts. With a tactical mind, you focus on coordinating your own effort with allies to win the battle efficiently while incurring as little harm as possible. You inspire cooperation, determination, and confidence through your tactical foresight, hard-wrought teamwork, and whatever luck you can muster.

Don't roleplay my character for me, please! I'll decide if my character is inspired and feeling cooperative, determined, or confident, thank you very much.

 

[Aldarc]

Don't roleplay my character for me, please! I'll decide if my character is inspired and feeling cooperative, determined, or confident, thank you very much.

You are now confusing the ideal with "roleplaying your character for you." Ideally a warlord would inspire confidence. It does not mean that they are roleplaying your character. That statement merely exists as the ideal for the warlord to aspire.

For example, check out the cleric description:

Clerics combine the helpful magic of healing and inspiring their allies with spells that harm and hinder foes.

Apparently the cleric also roleplays your character for you without having to cast anything on you, since they inspire you by casting spells on foes. =P

 

[Remathilis]

You're right. Warlord don't need to restore real hit points just because they did in 4E. Warlord Inspiration needs to restore real Hit Points because it's part of the Warlord concept - A fundamental part of the concept as expressed by Warlord fans.

No, its part of the /4e/ concept of a warlord. The 3e marshal didn't have healing. The Dragonlance Noble didn't have it. The Star Wars Noble (d20 or Saga) didn't have it. No 3e Prestige class class that focused on leadership (like Legendary Leader from HoBattle, Purple Dragon Knight from the FRCS, Tactical Soldier from the Minis HB, or any Pathfinder ones like Golden Legionnaire and Noble Scion). Out of all those examples, (some produced AFTER 4e in Paizo's case) NONE have hp restoration via nonmagical means. The 4e warlord is in fact in the minority as far as leaders go.

Its like the Artificer. The Eberron 3.5 artificer was good at buffing (via augments to magical items or constructs/warforged) so it made sense to make him a 4e Leader (the role focused on buffing). However, the artificer wasn't a healer (he had no natural healing spells save those that worked on warforged and constructs alone), and in 4e, Buffer = Leader = Healer. So the artificer got magical healing potions they could make rain on allies to give them healing surges twice per combat, because that's what Leaders do. Now, would you say that healing is a core part of the artificer concept? That any 5e artificer that comes out MUST have healing potions (at range no less) or they are a failure?

So, now it's your turn to answer a question: Why are you against the Warlord providing real, physical, Hit Point recovery through inspiration? Is it personal preference? Mechanical considerations? Or other?

Well, I'll answer this two ways:

I have no problem with a warlord rousing an ally rendered unconscious from battle using just 6-seconds worth of words from 10+ feet away IF that power was somehow "magical". Not a spell, but a supernatural power like a paladin's lay on hands or a bard's song of healing. If you will concede "nonmagical", I'll concede everything else.

OR

If you demand "nonmagical", then I must demand limits on its use.
A fighter can only use second wind when he's conscious (since its a bonus action to use) so no healing from unconscious (besides, unconscious condition says that the afflicted "is unaware of its surroundings", so it can't even hear your little pep talk).
Secondly, a fighter can only use SW once per rest, since it draws on "a limited well of stamina", and since the warlord isn't giving them new stamina (via magic) but triggering them to draw on such a similar well, I'd argue the warlord could only use this ability on a target once per short rest each. Further, since the warlord is speaking words of encouragement, the recipient must be able to hear them and understand them. Therefore, the healing wouldn't work if the target was deafened or didn't share a language (the latter isn't a concern among PCs who share Common as a lingua franca).
Lastly, while Healing Word is a bonus action to cast, its 1/2 as effective as Cure Wounds (which is both touch and an action). A warlord's healing should be similar; a small amount quickly from afar or a larger amount slower from adjacent. And since neither scale automatically, neither should a warlords (though some mechanic, like dice or warlord points could be used to augment that healed.)

Essentially, a warlord's nonmagical healing becomes "trigger a second wind-like ability in a target, once per target per short rest, as long as they aren't unconscious and can hear and understand you" which works just fine for hp recovery. He's still limited as a full healer (since he can't get Lesser/Greater Restoration) but he's at least recovering free hp for the party like a cleric can.

Work for you?