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Opinion: PoL and high tiers do not fit in the long run

Hussar

Legend
xechnao said:
But PCs are light, no? Unless dragons are the rulers and actively maintain the PoL-which I believe is not the case- I do not see how dragons will be interfering as to make it a valid point of yours. At best they can be considered as casual allies or enemies in a PoL setting.

No actually. There's nothing stopping you from your PC's being the darkness. The fact that Warlocks seem to be pretty dark and that paladins can now be any alignment points to allowing PC's to be part of the problem, rather than the solution, should you choose to play that way.
 

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Incenjucar

Legend
The PCs will never be powerful enough within RAW to take on the entire cosmology of opponents.

They won't be able to keep all the monsters in the world from keeping the darkness around. They MAY be able to greatly expand some points of light and, if they never stray from their world, their epic task could be heralding in a new age, but they're in no position, even at level 30, to keep the world in some utopic state.

Nor do they HAVE to be light. They can be darkness just as easily as dragons can be light.
 

xechnao

First Post
Hussar said:
No actually. There's nothing stopping you from your PC's being the darkness. The fact that Warlocks seem to be pretty dark and that paladins can now be any alignment points to allowing PC's to be part of the problem, rather than the solution, should you choose to play that way.

I don't get this. I thought PoL was more of a race-base-locality concept, a "heaven" for the PC races against the rest of the world which represents darkness due to its unsafety. Conflict among the two sides exists because of the needs of expansion and not of the metaphysical good or evil. Is it not the case?
 

Hussar

Legend
Here's the rough outline of PoL

Rich Baker said:
Points of Light

by Rich Baker

The Design & Development article series premiered on the D&D website back in September 2005, and has been a staple ever since. With the approach of 4th Edition, and our designers and developers focused on the new edition, this column will be the primary vehicle for 4th Edition coverage. We’ll not only give you peeks at what’s forthcoming, but also the “how” and “why.”

Keep in mind that the game is still in a state of flux, as refinements are made by our design and development staff. You’re getting a look behind the curtain at game design in progress, so enjoy, and feel free to send your comments to dndinsider@wizards.com.

The Dungeons & Dragons game assumes many things about its setting: The world is populated by a variety of intelligent races, strange monsters lurk on other planes, ancient empires have left ruins across the face of the world, and so on. But one of the new key conceits about the D&D world is simply this: Civilized folk live in small, isolated points of light scattered across a big, dark, dangerous world.

Most of the world is monster-haunted wilderness. The centers of civilization are few and far between, and the world isn’t carved up between nation-states that jealously enforce their borders. A few difficult and dangerous roads tenuously link neighboring cities together, but if you stray from them you quickly find yourself immersed in goblin-infested forests, haunted barrowfields, desolate hills and marshes, and monster-hunted badlands. Anything could be waiting down that old overgrown dwarf-built road: a den of ogre marauders, a forgotten tower where a lamia awaits careless travelers, a troll’s cave, a lonely human village under the sway of a demonic cult, or a black wood where shadows and ghosts thirst for the blood of the living.

Given the perilous nature of the world around the small islands of civilization, many adventures revolve around venturing into the wild lands. For example:

* Roads are often closed by bandits, marauders such as goblins or gnolls, or hungry monsters such as griffons or dragons. The simple mission of driving off whomever or whatever is preying on unfortunate travelers is how many young heroes begin their careers.


* Since towns and villages do not stay in close contact, it’s easy for all sorts of evils to befall a settlement without anyone noticing for a long time. A village might be terrorized by a pack of werewolves or enslaved by an evil wizard, and no one else would know until adventurers stumbled into the situation.


* Many small settlements and strongholds are founded, flourish for a time, and then fall into darkness. The wild lands are filled with forgotten towers, abandoned towns, haunted castles, and ruined temples. Even people living only a few miles away from such places might know them only by rumor and legend.

The common folk of the world look upon the wild lands with dread. Few people are widely traveled—even the most ambitious merchant is careful to stick to better-known roads. The lands between towns or homesteads are wide and empty. It might be safe enough within a day’s ride of a city or an hour’s walk of a village, but go beyond that and you are taking your life into your hands. People are scared of what might be waiting in the old forest or beyond the barren hills at the far end of the valley, because whatever is out there is most likely hungry and hostile. Striking off into untraveled lands is something only heroes and adventurers do.

Another implication of this basic conceit of the world is that there is very little in the way of authority to deal with raiders and marauders, outbreaks of demon worship, rampaging monsters, deadly hauntings, or similar local problems. Settlements afflicted by troubles can only hope for a band of heroes to arrive and set things right. If there is a kingdom beyond the town’s walls, it’s still largely covered by unexplored forest and desolate hills where evil folk gather. The king’s soldiers might do a passable job of keeping the lands within a few miles of his castle free of monsters and bandits, but most of the realm’s outlying towns and villages are on their own.

In such a world, adventurers are aberrant. Commoners view them as brave at best, and insane at worst. But such a world is rife with the possibility for adventure, and no true hero will ever lack for a villain to vanquish or a quest to pursue.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
xechnao said:
I don't get this. I thought PoL was more of a race-base-locality concept, a "heaven" for the PC races against the rest of the world which represents darkness due to its unsafety. Conflict among the two sides exists because of the needs of expansion and not of the metaphysical good or evil. Is it not the case?

:confused:

It is not the case.

Points of Light is the notion that civilization is a minority status, whereas wilderness is a majority.

More Hoth, less Coruscant.

It's basically just lots of "Fog of War" and "You're at the edge of the map, here there be monsters!" and such.

The monsters could just be cursed pirates.
 

A few things worth noting:

  • PoL isn't a cosmological element of the game
  • It's explicitly cyclical not static or progressive
  • The Light in PoL does not refer to good, it refers to sheltered as opposed to chaotic and uncertain, the Points can explicitly be sources of conflict as well.
  • For a really phenomenal literary take on PoL with good theories of history, epic fantasy characters, and a sound grounding in Anthropology and Archaeology I recommend Erickson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series
 

xechnao said:
But PCs are light, no? Unless dragons are the rulers and actively maintain the PoL-which I believe is not the case- I do not see how dragons will be interfering as to make it a valid point of yours. At best they can be considered as casual allies or enemies in a PoL setting.

It's largely irrelevant to the conversation, but Dragons are explicitly portrayed as rulers who work to maintain the PoL.

There are a number of portrayals of Dragons but two of them are:

Gold Dragons who function as benevolent dictators who, despite crafting a point of light, may need to be taken down by adventurers in service to Bahamut due to their overly controlling nature.

Green Dragons who function as a 'Point of Shade/gray' by taxing merchants and simultaneously keeping the road clear of most obstacles and other bandits, predators, and tax collectors.
 

xechnao

First Post
Hussar said:
Civilized folk live in small, isolated points of light scattered across a big, dark, dangerous world. Most of the world is monster-haunted wilderness.

So yes, I think I was right. PoL is mostly a race thing than a metaphysical supernatural good-evil thing.

Honestly, the only campaign I can think of regarding this setting is a campaign with the title "rebuilding from the ashes".

But after rebuilding ends PoL seems to offer nothing more.
 

Incenjucar

Legend
Really, all PoL does is establish that society is not presently divided into large-scale governments, allowing low-level adventurers to feel other non-redundant, and to ensure that mysteries (read: plot hooks) are plentiful.

--

PoL is NOT a race thing, it is a civilized/uncivilized thing.

Yes, the wilderness is full of monsters, but plenty of those monsters are humans.

When rebuilding ends you're just at the top of the roller coaster.

Do you know what happens when you get to the top of the roller coaster?
 

xechnao

First Post
Dr. Strangemonkey said:
[*]PoL isn't a cosmological element of the game

Ok. But is there another cosmological element?

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
It's largely irrelevant to the conversation, but Dragons are explicitly portrayed as rulers who work to maintain the PoL.

There are a number of portrayals of Dragons but two of them are:

Gold Dragons who function as benevolent dictators who, despite crafting a point of light, may need to be taken down by adventurers in service to Bahamut due to their overly controlling nature.

Green Dragons who function as a 'Point of Shade/gray' by taxing merchants and simultaneously keeping the road clear of most obstacles and other bandits, predators, and tax collectors.

Actually it is the most relevant thing for me in these 5 pages. This is very interesting. Suppose that dragons and PCs need to have a relation of keeping in check with each other, this could provide the new meaning of the d&d world.
 

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