Opinion: PoL and high tiers do not fit in the long run

[PeterWeller]

I don't get this. I thought PoL was more of a race-base-locality concept, a "heaven" for the PC races against the rest of the world which represents darkness due to its unsafety. Conflict among the two sides exists because of the needs of expansion and not of the metaphysical good or evil. Is it not the case?

Not exactly. In its most simplistic form, the light is good, and the darkness is evil, but this is just the most basic, comic booky, black and white interpretation, and it only has to be this simplistic if you want it to be.

At its core, PoL is a world where vast regions are unexplored or ill defined. There are areas of "light," where civilization reigns and the average person can feel relatively safe from the bandits and monsters that inhabit the spaces in between. These spaces are meant to stay undefined, so as to make it easy to drop in adventures and locations with ease.

Now, is there a conflict between the darkness and the light? Only if you want there to be. The assumptions of PoL don't preclude any other type of conflict. They simply create a backdrop for it, a backdrop that if used correctly is an open playground for a huge variety of adventures both related and unrelated to the central conflict of your campaign, if there even is a central conflict to your campaign. Nothing in the PoL setup forces you to concentrate on a single conflict.

Even if you choose to base the central conflict of your campaign on the battle between "light" and "darkness" or "good" and "evil," there is nothing inherent in the setup that says players cannot bring light to the world nor that the world can descend back into darkness.

 

[xechnao]

Do you know what happens when you get to the top of the roller coaster?

No I don't. This is what I am saying all along that is missing. This dragon theory is interesting though (see Dr. Strangemonkey's post).

 

[Incenjucar]

No I don't. This is what I am saying all along that is missing. This dragon theory is interesting though (see Dr. Strangemonkey's post).

:\

The answer to "What happens after you get to the top of the roller coaster" is:

The Screaming.

 

[Baron Opal]

In 3.5 there were not 2 sides. There were 2 sides + 1 side to actively keep the balance among the 2. Moreover members of each side could transit on other sides and with the inclusion of the 2 layers of law and chaos side interests were not so distinct.
I did not like alignment. But I do want an alernative balancing cosmology where eternal conflict can work somehow in a d&d power campaign.

???

I see, you see the conflict in 3.Xe as fundamentally against the five main alignments. If you had a PoL setting, or any other style of setting, there would be continual strife regardless of the power level of the PCs. If the PCs defeated another "side" (say, Chaos defeats Law) there would be at least three other forces to directly oppose the side throwing off the balance. You do not see this in 4e.

Assuming that I summarized your point, I disagree. Rather than deliniateing sides by alignment the 4e cosmology makes distinctions more by realm. So you have the Court of Stars in the Faewild, Hall of Glooms in Shadowfell, the Tyrant of the City of Brass, &c. that can continue to pose problems and generate strife in the campaign.

Levels 21-30 are still "epic". I don't really have an appreciation of how the power levels run, but from what I read I don't expect that they will be that much different than in 3e, just flow better. I expect that by the time you reach the high teens, low twenties you will have plenty of opportunities for what you describe.

You might consider Sepulchrave's storyhour an example of high level PCs who have expanded their PoL setting to a nation that is a Point and beating back the darkness from that level.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Twin: xechnao's argument seems to be that, in his campaign, this would be a stable state that could never destabilize after it had been initially established, thereby preventing further adventures.

How that works, I haven't the foggiest.

Well, I was asking you and Hussar that question just as much as I was asking xechnao.

xechnao's argument seems to be based on the idea that the heroes saving the world completely is a bad thing (I will ignore his idea that it is inevitable for the moment).

Your argument is based on the idea that the heroes saving the world is an impossibility, and as such xechnao's "worst case" will not occur.

However, I think that there is no problem at all with the idea that the heroes' actions will "prevent further adventures". I see no problem with the PCs of an epic-level D&D campaign rendering such change upon a setting as to completely change the nature of the setting and prevent the conflict they have fought from ever being repeated. In fact, I think such a change should be the end result of a good campaign. To use an example, I have no problem with the PCs killing Asmodeus, destroying (or redeeming) the Nine Hells and banishing all devils from the cosmos for the rest of eternity, making it impossible for devils to trouble the mortal world ever again in that setting.

I think my opinions on the matter are more of a result of me creating a new setting for every campaign I want to run and custom-building each setting for the specific campaign, but I really don't see why xechnao's problem exists at all, and I don't see why your solution of "evil never really goes away" is at all necessary.

 

[Victim]

Quite frankly, I don't see how the power available to epic characters and monsters can result in anything other dynamic points of light. Power rests in the hands of legendary individuals and small groups, and can't really be transfered to social institutions. Therefore, as those individuals go, so goes everyone else. Characters with incredible power aren't really condusive to stable societies, IMO. Especially obtaining that power generally involves an incredibly violent lifestyle. Even heroic characters can often be pretty flawed - and the more desparate the situation, the more likely that anyone who can win becomes the hero of [subject hometown]. And a dynamic PoL situation is pretty desparate. Just because someone is heroic enough to oppose forces that would wipe out the world, a city, a town, a whatever doesn't necessary make them nice people.

To abuse a modern analogy, if nuclear weapons were in the hands of small groups or individuals instead of large organizations who employ numerous failsafes to prevent unauthorized use, do you think they wouldn't get used? Epic characters with godlike power seems more like a reason that PoL sticks around than a reason it would end. Even without power corrupting, it's generally easier to break things than to build them.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

So yes, I think I was right. PoL is mostly a race thing than a metaphysical supernatural good-evil thing.

Honestly, the only campaign I can think of regarding this setting is a campaign with the title "rebuilding from the ashes".

But after rebuilding ends PoL seems to offer nothing more.

Alright, let me give you an example of a PoL campaign from beginning to end:

The PCs all come from a small village which isn't part of any "kingdom" or "country". It may have been at one point, but no one remembers that far back. All the people here know is that they've been living together for centuries and doing alright for themselves. In the ancient past they used to have a king and life was much better, but that was so long ago that there is no hope in returning to that.

No one from the village leaves town as there's no reason to. They have everything they need in life here. They grow their own food, have water, friends, family all here. They get a caravan of armed merchants who comes into town from the west. They have told stories of other villages and even some cities. However, they also bring tales of monsters and creatures 3 times larger than a man. So, almost everyone from the village isn't brave enough to travel anywhere to find out if the tales are true or not. Every once in a while a creature wanders into town and it takes the whole town to defend against them.

One day, a horde of orcs suddenly attacks the town. The PCs happen to have skills that were passed down to them from their parents and they leave to the defense of the town. However, almost everyone is killed in the attack except for them.

Given no other option, the Mayor of the town leads the refugees west to whatever town exists out there since there are no longer enough peasants left to survive on their own. They find a larger town that welcomes them in. However, that town is also attacked by orcs. It is an even larger force.

The PCs are the only ones who can stop the orc hordes and prevent more people from dying, so they go into the woods and slay the orc chieftain. However, they find a small map and a note from someone ordering the chieftain to attack villages.

They follow the map and get involved in some political maneuvering in a small kingdom a weeks travel away. Along the way they go on some side quests, helping people with their problems and defeating some monsters. They eventually figure out who is behind the attacks, it is the heir to the throne of the kingdom who appears to be trying to pay the orcs to attack so he can take over the kingdom.

The PCs reveal his involvement and eventually find him and kill him. However, as he dies there is a cloaked figure who appears in the corner and claps and says, "Very good, you may have one this time, but my master, Orcus has plans for you. You will not defeat him." then he teleports away. After some investigation, it is found out that the heir to the throne was being promised power beyond his wildest imagination if only he'd kill the king and take over.

The PCs investigate and find out that there are rumors coming into the kingdom that the orcs were also searching for strange magical artifacts across the land. They've heard tales of other people looking for similar artifacts in other, far away lands. They travel there to see who is doing this and why.

They find cultists who worship Orcus and manage to find out that they were commanded by their leader to bring all of the artifacts to their High Temple but they don't know why.

The PCs go to the temple, fight their way through all the cultists and finally defeat their leader. Before the leader dies, he says that the PCs are too late and that Orcus has already received the artifacts which he needs to escape from hell into this world. He will rule the world with an iron fist and there is no one who can stop him. Behind him is an open portal to Hell.

The PCs go to Hell in order to stop Orcus from using the artifacts. They fight their way through demonic minions and powerful demons in order to reach Orcus. They eventually destroy him and recover the artifacts.

The world is safe from Orcus' evil ploy. The heroes come back and tales of their deeds make their way across the land to even places the PCs haven't been. The gods reward the PCs with places of power as servants or equals.

Meanwhile, agents of Demogorgan watch the people from the darkness as they prepare a plot that will cover the entire world in darkness. Luckily, the heroes have become gods, become one with the world, moved to their castles in the Elemental Chaos, or died. No one is around to stop them.

Meanwhile....in a small village 4-6 new heroes are just beginning their journey...but that is a story for another day.

 

[Fenes]

Maybe this is more a sign of differing game views. For some, high level means not just taking on bigger bags of HP, but shaping the land and society, training apprentices, men at arms, forming alliances, and dynasties. This may date back to 1E with the "9th level, time to start building the keep" view.

Others see heroes as mainly opposing/taking on foes, and less of builders.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Just to use another Lord of the Rings analogy:
After having defeated the "Ultimate Evil" in LotR, Sauron, the Hobbits return to their Shire. They find that some human bandits are trying to enslave/abuse their fellow hobbits. They quickly take them out, which means the Shire is safe again, but notice:
Despite them stopping the big evil, they weren't there to stop a "smaller" evil going on somewhere else. Elsewhere, Orcs and the human allies of Sauron are still alive, and they might try for a comeback on their own...

Heroic characters don't have the resources to rescue the kingdom or stop Asmodeus, but they can safe the village from the orc raids and bring down the local necromancer trying to control the area.
Paragon characters have to infiltrate enemy armies or find vital artifacts to protect the kingdom from the giant hordes trying to bring it down, and finally take down the leading dragon. But they don't have the time anymore to stop the local bandits taking a village hostage.
Epic level characters enter the planes and try to stop demon hordes being released into the abyss. They try finding a lost god that can help them against Asmodeus recent plans to escape the hells. But they don't have the time to notice a Yuan-Ti king assembling the various tribes of his race to begin starting a war against a friendly kingdom. And the village that was raided and burned down by an orc army was even further from their view...

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Ok. But is there another cosmological element?



Actually it is the most relevant thing for me in these 5 pages. This is very interesting. Suppose that dragons and PCs need to have a relation of keeping in check with each other, this could provide the new meaning of the d&d world.

Well, I don't know how much I can help you here, since I'd guess that this edition of DnD doesn't have the central meaning or historical dynamic that you seem to be wanting.

The dragon thing isn't a theory, for instance, it is a specific repeating phenomena.

Dragons and adventurers don't exist to keep each other in check, it's just that they are two powerful actors who can act on each other or their interests and that they both can have a certain stake in the 'light' phenomena that also affects the world.

But I'll make two attempts:

First, I'm not convinced we've seen enough of the cosmology to make a strong opinion, but if I had to hazard a guess about the cosmological dynamic of the new game it's the following:

That creation is a constantly echoing act (Feywild and Shadowfell) defined by the tension between those forces which would constantly unmake/make it (the titans, primordials, elemental chaos, and Abyssals); those who would preserve and use it (the gods, the devils, and the Astral Dominions); and those who would warp it with their indifference and nihilism (the Far Realms and Aberrations).

Good and Evil are not of these forces, and none of these forces can be subtracted from the existence that is creation.

Good and Evil are, however, present across this great struggle and symphony. Those who have embraced either have the most agency. They hear the music best.

Ultimately, it is that awareness that commitment to action that enabled the gods to best the primordials. Though they struggle between themselves over the essence of good and evil, they alone understand it truly.

Second, are you familiar with cyclical views of history? I'm not saying you have to believe or adopt them, but being familiar with them might help your acceptance of the new paradigm.

Aristotle's Politics contains the classic cyclical paradigm. Marx is certainly the most current cyclical paradigm, but it's also wed to an idea of progress that can be confusing. My personal favorite is Vico's which comes with a nice theory of epochs and loads of fun poeticalness.

Regardless, the basic principle is that the tactics any one power system uses to come to power bring with them the seeds of that power's destruction.

Third, if I were to posit an ultimate balancing agent on the accumulation of power within this setting beyond rarity it would be that each level of power brings with it its own indifference.

On the one hand we have low level heroes who know little of the great scope of the cosmos, and on the other we have gods who are great and powerful but ultimately distant and remote - able to grant spells and hear prayers but otherwise unwilling to interfere.

The first level fighter cannot possibly fight the dragon and the 12 level hero cannot be bothered to fight the Orc. Ultimately, the level of competition in this system is too high. Light would only totally drive the dark, or vice versa, if it could apply its talents to a host of problems it could overmatch utterly. Unfortunately, there are too many challenging threat for that to be an apporpriate use of any power's time.