GreatLemur
Explorer
I like most of what seems to be in 'em. But I ain't gonna buy 'em.
D&D 4E Opinions on the 4E preview books...
- Thread starter Drkfathr1
- Start date
Just for the record, I asked at my FLGS whether they had to pay to stock those preview books or not.
They do...and they're not selling well.
If they don't sell, the FLGS eats the cost...until they pass it along to you in the form of increased prices or by going out of biz.
I guess part of my problem with them isn't just my perception of them as advertising and of game material that may change by the release date (making it virtually useless), but also that they have a factor in common with the "Races of" material...
Which is that if the game material is not changed and is part of the upcoming release schedule, then I've effectively paid for it twice.
To quote a children's book- "Not THIS bear!" I'm patient enough to wait until my preordered copies arrive.
They do...and they're not selling well.
If they don't sell, the FLGS eats the cost...until they pass it along to you in the form of increased prices or by going out of biz.
I guess part of my problem with them isn't just my perception of them as advertising and of game material that may change by the release date (making it virtually useless), but also that they have a factor in common with the "Races of" material...
Which is that if the game material is not changed and is part of the upcoming release schedule, then I've effectively paid for it twice.
To quote a children's book- "Not THIS bear!" I'm patient enough to wait until my preordered copies arrive.
The Little Raven
First Post
Dannyalcatraz said:
It's as much buying the same material twice as buying the Matrix Revisited is buying the Matrix twice (it isn't). The PHB and any "Races" books will not tell you what they went through during the design process to reach where they are today, just as the Matrix movie itself will not tell you all the stuff they went through during production.
The Races books contained a lot of fluff on PHB races that any DM who homebrews already replaces and mechanics that are essentially reprints. Really- how many pages on Humans, Half-Orcs and Half-Elves did Races of Destiny really need?
The new races and stuff was what...60% of the book? Definitely not worth paying full price.
I've DMed for 25 years of my 30 in the hobby- I really don't need "behind the scenes" stuff that probably won't see any use in my campaign. Interesting it may be, but not worth $20.
The new races and stuff was what...60% of the book? Definitely not worth paying full price.
I've DMed for 25 years of my 30 in the hobby- I really don't need "behind the scenes" stuff that probably won't see any use in my campaign. Interesting it may be, but not worth $20.
Desdichado
Hero
Liked them awright. I had pretty low expectations given what the nature of the books was, though.Drkfathr1 said:
Nope. Still not likely to convert in the near future, because the merits (or lack thereof) of 4e is not my deciding factor by a long shot.Drkfathr1 said:
I have looked through R&C in the shop and wouldn't buy it - as Johnny said above, I think it will quickly become redundant.
I just bought W&M this morning from my FLGS (Mind Games, Swanston St, Melbourne) for $27 Australian. This was after reading good things about it on this forum.
Having read about one quarter of the way through I'm not disappointed. The art is mostly excellent - not just in execution but (more importantly) in concept. The art director cites the LoTR movies as an inspiration for how images can convey the themes and world elements, and it has really worked out.
The text is also very good. There are no mechanics, but it nevertheless full of ideas about how to run a game, how to set up a campaign (and a campaign world that will support it) and how to make the fantasy elements and historical elements of a fantasy RPG combine properly. It puts paid to the notion that the 4e changes are changes for the sake of it (and not just in a sidebar to this effect, but through the whole explanation of the rationale for the changes to the setting and its constituent elements).
Between what we have seen of the mechanics, and what is in W&M, 4e really does look to be the most coherent and sophisticated version of D&D yet attempted.
I just bought W&M this morning from my FLGS (Mind Games, Swanston St, Melbourne) for $27 Australian. This was after reading good things about it on this forum.
Having read about one quarter of the way through I'm not disappointed. The art is mostly excellent - not just in execution but (more importantly) in concept. The art director cites the LoTR movies as an inspiration for how images can convey the themes and world elements, and it has really worked out.
The text is also very good. There are no mechanics, but it nevertheless full of ideas about how to run a game, how to set up a campaign (and a campaign world that will support it) and how to make the fantasy elements and historical elements of a fantasy RPG combine properly. It puts paid to the notion that the 4e changes are changes for the sake of it (and not just in a sidebar to this effect, but through the whole explanation of the rationale for the changes to the setting and its constituent elements).
Between what we have seen of the mechanics, and what is in W&M, 4e really does look to be the most coherent and sophisticated version of D&D yet attempted.
I don't think this perception is accurate, at least with respect to W&M. It is not advertising material (at least not in any straightforward sense - if you think that blockbuster movies are adds for all the merchandise, then the book might be advertising in that sense, but in a world of commercial media distribution this is true of a great deal of films and literature).Dannyalcatraz said:
Nor is the game material useless (IMO) regardless of whether it ends up being incorporated into the DMG and/or MM. What the book has, but what I don't expect in either of those books (unless they are radically different from their predecessors) is an explanation of the game logic of the 4e world elements, and why they differ (where they do) from predecessor editions. This is good stuff for a GM of any fantasy game.
Of course, none of the above proves that it is worth buying. And there are echoes of the material available for free (through the WoTC site, for example - and Monte posted similar sorts of commentary on Ptolus and Arcana Evolved, although it is a lot less extensive and (I think) not as well thought out). My point is that it is not an ad, and will not go out of date.
Whizbang Dustyboots
Gnometown Hero
Same here.Mouseferatu said:
It also helps that I got them from Amazon for a more reasonable price.
Gothmog
First Post
So far, I like them both. I'm excited about playing D&D again for the first time in a while. 4E seems to be using a lot of assumptions I'd already made for my games and homebrew world, and the promise of a simplified system with more inherent character abilities, and not relying on magic items is wonderful news.
R&C has some cool ideas, and I'm interested to see how classes and abilities are handled. I do like that feats are not taken in some convoluted sequence anymore, and that there are tiers of feats- its easier to determine which abilities belong at what power levels that way. I also love the idea of spells like teleport, plane shift, etc being rituals- no more buff, teleport, blast, teleport out. The design team seems to understand that magic is magical- not just a tool to use willy-nilly. I do have to admit I find the tieflings and dragonborn kinda dumb though, but its a simple thing to just ignore them.
W&M is what has really impressed me though. I love the points of light emphasis- it drives home the world is a dangerous place, and even other "lights" can be hostile. The game seems to be implying a darker, and more mysterious feel, something that largely vanished during the 3E days of overquantification. The art is superb in W&M- I love the ephasis on the world and landscapes again, after the sucktacular art in 3E just showing highly stylized characters against a white background. The end of the Great Wheel has me ecstatic- the Great Wheel always felt artificial and unweildy. The new realms (Shadowfell, Feywild, Elemental Chaos, Astral Sea and Dominions) are very well thought out, and have a lot more potential for use than the old planes ever did. In particular, I love the Shadowfell and Feywild- for years I'd already been using ideas almost identical to these in my games (the Shadow Empyrean and Spirit World), so it will be cool to see how they handle these. The new distinction between demons and devils makes a LOT more sense too, and Asmodeus is finally going to get his time to shine! The Far Realm is just freakin' cool anyway, and more Lovecraftian influences in D&D is a welcome addition.
So while I'm not 100% convinced that 4E will be the game for me, it looks leaps and bounds better than 3E for my playstyle, and I have high hopes for it.
R&C has some cool ideas, and I'm interested to see how classes and abilities are handled. I do like that feats are not taken in some convoluted sequence anymore, and that there are tiers of feats- its easier to determine which abilities belong at what power levels that way. I also love the idea of spells like teleport, plane shift, etc being rituals- no more buff, teleport, blast, teleport out. The design team seems to understand that magic is magical- not just a tool to use willy-nilly. I do have to admit I find the tieflings and dragonborn kinda dumb though, but its a simple thing to just ignore them.
W&M is what has really impressed me though. I love the points of light emphasis- it drives home the world is a dangerous place, and even other "lights" can be hostile. The game seems to be implying a darker, and more mysterious feel, something that largely vanished during the 3E days of overquantification. The art is superb in W&M- I love the ephasis on the world and landscapes again, after the sucktacular art in 3E just showing highly stylized characters against a white background. The end of the Great Wheel has me ecstatic- the Great Wheel always felt artificial and unweildy. The new realms (Shadowfell, Feywild, Elemental Chaos, Astral Sea and Dominions) are very well thought out, and have a lot more potential for use than the old planes ever did. In particular, I love the Shadowfell and Feywild- for years I'd already been using ideas almost identical to these in my games (the Shadow Empyrean and Spirit World), so it will be cool to see how they handle these. The new distinction between demons and devils makes a LOT more sense too, and Asmodeus is finally going to get his time to shine! The Far Realm is just freakin' cool anyway, and more Lovecraftian influences in D&D is a welcome addition.
So while I'm not 100% convinced that 4E will be the game for me, it looks leaps and bounds better than 3E for my playstyle, and I have high hopes for it.
