Orb isn't Broken (probably)

[MeMeMeMe]

The last time I saw the orb discussed the opinion that the Orb saving throw bonus was too powerful, espeically in combination with spells like Sleep.

This was because you can apply the mage'Wizards WIS bonus as a penalty to a spell saving throw.
The interpretation has been that this penalty applies every round, until the creature succeeds (or dies).
I think this interpretation is wrong. I think the penalty applies for one single saving throw: it applies for one round, and then it's done.

If you look at the other implements, Wand and Stave, their primary benefit is to give a bonus to one single roll. The Wand gives +2 to one attack, the Staff gives a CON bonus to AC. (It also gives a permanent +1 AC, but this is because it uses up two hands.)

So I think the Orb is also meant to apply to one single roll.

 

[Baumi]

I do think that it is for the whole time, but I don't think it is broken. It can be made broken but only by an absolute min-maxing of your stat (including a sub-optimal intelligence).

A normal Wis-Orb Wizard will start with 14-16 Wis (depends on Race) and even if you spend every Levelbonus into Wis you still will end with 22-24 Wis. While a -6 to -7 Save is very powerful, it is still not gamebreaking since the important Enemies (Elite and Solos) have a Save Bonus and even normal Enemies still stand a chance.

A Dex-Wand Wizard who has the same stats is not much weaker since with that bonus he can be quite sure that his most Important Power will Function when he really needs it ... a thing that a Wis-Wizard cannot count on.

A Con-Staff Wizard doesn't sound to good but he will have 10 more hit-points and 5 more surges than an ordinary Wizard and he will likely ignore one very important hit ... so while not flashy, he will be VERY tough.

The only problem is that you can abuse the Orb Power as a extreme min-maxer, which I still think is unoptimized in the long run since against all other enemies he will be weaker (lower Int and the other attributes will likely suck).

 

[Falling Icicle]

If it only affected one save, it would be next to useless, IMHO.

 

[Corn Popper]

That creature takes a penalty to its saving throws against that effect equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Emphasys mine.
I think plural indicates that it can't be only one signle saving throw.

 

[Derren]

Alone its probably not broken, but in combination with "Save of be Screwed" powers it is.
Sleep is one of those powers and who knows what other such powers will be published in the splatbooks. So Orbs are at least very critical and a likely component of broken combos.

 

[DracoSuave]

Alone its probably not broken, but in combination with "Save of be Screwed" powers it is.
Sleep is one of those powers and who knows what other such powers will be published in the splatbooks. So Orbs are at least very critical and a likely component of broken combos.

Against normal monsters tho, you're only taking one out, so while it seems like it's megapowerful, it's a drop in the bucket given that the abilities you can abuse with it don't damage the rest.

Against elites and solos, it has a big effect, but the chances of actually -getting- that effect to stick in the first place are slim to none if you rely on the Wisdom rather than Int.


Wand and Staff get a lot of flak compared to this, but do consider that Dex from Wand does qualify you for a lot more of those juicy feats that make you alround better, and Staff the same... -plus-... it's power applies after -damage is rolled- so you even know -exactly- how bad the hit that killed you was.

 

[Puggins]

If it only affected one save, it would be next to useless, IMHO.

It would still be the most powerful of the implements, though by a narrower margin. People might even take staff specialization once in a while for variety.

Wands, though... dexterity is completely non-synergistic. You sacrifice +2 to +4 to one of your saves for wand specialization. Not good. An eladrin with dex 16 starting out would be okay, I guess, and +3 once per encounter is a good bonus.

I'd like that change.

 

[Rith the Wanderer]

It would still be the most powerful of the implements, though by a narrower margin. People might even take staff specialization once in a while for variety.

Wands, though... dexterity is completely non-synergistic. You sacrifice +2 to +4 to one of your saves for wand specialization. Not good. An eladrin with dex 16 starting out would be okay, I guess, and +3 once per encounter is a good bonus.

I'd like that change.

Currently there are builds on the char op boards that argue for Wand against Orb, using the current rules. This doesn't mean you are wrong, but generally the charop guys know what they are doing, and I would go read some of those builds before deciding its crap.

If you still think their builds are absolutley sub par, even if the orb only effected one roll, then well, you have more ammo for your arguments.

 

[Nifft]

It would still be the most powerful of the implements, though by a narrower margin. People might even take staff specialization once in a while for variety.

Staff is great for people who like the Hand powers, because escaping from them is an attack against the caster's Fortitude or Reflex defense.

Wands can be used with Wizard and Warlock powers, so I guess they'd be good for a multi-class dude, but Wizards have very little motivation to multi-class into Warlock...

Cheers, -- N

 

[ravenight]

It isn't broken. At best, with a lot of sacrifices in your ability to do anything else, and assuming that making something sleep is an auto-kill, you will have a 3/4 chance to kill a solo once per day at 28th level. At 28th level, you are pretty much in god territory anyway, so being able to take out 1 elite or solo dude per day with one of your powers isn't even that impressive. Not to mention that the solo is highly likely to just end up taking some damage and then waking up (since you can't get its save rate down to 0). Compared to other 20-something level dailies that isn't even that impressive. So what's the problem?

I agree that orb is a cool effect, that is slightly better than the other ones, unless there are specific other circumstances.