Orc Archer - overpowered?

[S'mon]

The 4th level artillery Orc Archer in Monster Vault has a 'clustered volley' at will, that is area burst-1 within 20, ATT +9 vs AC, hit d10+6 damage. I'm wondering if this is too powerful; should it be a recharge power, maybe 4-6? His basic ranged attack is ATT +11 (edited) for d10+6 & push 1 square.

I can kinda see this guy as an uber-archer Ranger-style leader of Orc Savages (the Essentials Orc minion-4), but if I used 5 of these guys together and they won init vs a close-grouped level 4 party I think they'd slaughter 'em.

 

[Mengu]

For a level 4 creature, +9 vs AC is the normal attack bonus, and for an artillery, burst 1 is not out of line. 1d10+6 (11.5) is on par with the expected damage which is 2d6+5 (12). The single target attack is at +11 vs AC, which is slightly more accurate, again, an expected increase for artillery, their attacks can be 1 or 2 points more accurate.

You'll want to note that as artillery, their hit points are lower than skirmishers and the like.

As to fighting 5 of these guys, I'd rather do that than fight 5 swarms. But normally you won't be fighting more than 2-3 of them, since they need a front line. Otherwise, they are too easy to lock down/take out. If they all get initiative though, it could be a swingy fight, especially against a lower level party.

 

[Aulirophile]

So a Defender will have 22 AC at level 4. 4.83 average damage versus them. Melee Strikers should have 20, so 5.98 against them, and ranged characters should have 18, 7.13 against them. Those are the baselines in the Player's Strategy Guide, reality has slight variations. But we'll assume the characters aren't awful.

35 damage at level 4 against each PC, if each PC has gimp AC, hasn't taken any defensive utilities, items, or powers in general, they are clumped up, and the whole party loses initiative. They're all still alive though, and again assuming a not gimp party, should be able to stun, kill, mark or otherwise deal with all five of them.

So, no, not overpowered. As with most things in the MM3 and the MV it will rape a gimp party.... but that isn't actually a monster problem as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Klaus]

The 4th level artillery Orc Archer in Monster Vault has a 'clustered volley' at will, that is area burst-1 within 20, ATT +9 vs AC, hit d10+6 damage. I'm wondering if this is too powerful; should it be a recharge power, maybe 4-6? His basic ranged attack is ATT +7 for d10+6 & push 1 square.

I can kinda see this guy as an uber-archer Ranger-style leader of Orc Savages (the Essentials Orc minion-4), but if I used 5 of these guys together and they won init vs a close-grouped level 4 party I think they'd slaughter 'em.

If you want to realistically limit the Orc Archer, give him 30 arrows and count them off. Once he hits zero arrows, he'll have to rely on his melee basic attack (or, more accurately, he'll run away before he reaches 5 arrows).

 

[Larrin]

As I recall the red box D&D game day adventure started the level 1 party facing two of these guys plus several drakes. Don't do that. Otherwise, by level 3 or 4 the party can handle this.

 

[Mengu]

So a Defender will have 22 AC at level 4. 4.83 average damage versus them. Melee Strikers should have 20, so 5.98 against them, and ranged characters should have 18, 7.13 against them. Those are the baselines in the Player's Strategy Guide, reality has slight variations. But we'll assume the characters aren't awful.

35 damage at level 4 against each PC, if each PC has gimp AC, hasn't taken any defensive utilities, items, or powers in general, they are clumped up, and the whole party loses initiative. They're all still alive though, and again assuming a not gimp party, should be able to stun, kill, mark or otherwise deal with all five of them.

If we're giving numbers, we need to take into account, a level 2 party can be facing a level 4 encounter. It's supposed to be a difficult encounter, but they need to be able to handle it. Honestly, if they are clumped together in a hallway and the archers gain surprise or initiative on them, a level 2 party will likely be toast. 3 out of 5 attacks would hit, dealing 3d10+18 (34.5) damage per PC. At level 2, even if one or two PC's survive, they won't be able to come back from that alpha strike.

As a matter of fact, a level 1 party of 6 may face 5 orc archers, and it would be a level 2 encounter (just below the budget of level 3). If you look at the budget, they should be able to handle it. If you look at the individual threats, their levels are allowed to be up to 3 levels above party level for a standard encounter, up to 5 levels for a hard encounter, so level 4 orcs look acceptable. If you look at reality, it's near certain TPK.

It's unwise to make such an encounter. MM3 damage needs to be watched carefully at low levels.

The orc archers follow the MM3 guidelines, and at level 4 or higher, they are certainly an appropriate foe, but that's not enough information for the full picture. They really need to make new encounter building guidelines post MM3. The original DMG guidelines are way outdated.

 

[Ktulu]

Oh, they're definitely tough...but I like it. When my players see one on the battlefield, they know to take out the ranged. Makes the front-line berserkers happy with OA's while the strikers move to engage.

I think more monsters should evoke that sort of a response.

 

[S'mon]

If you want to realistically limit the Orc Archer, give him 30 arrows and count them off. Once he hits zero arrows, he'll have to rely on his melee basic attack (or, more accurately, he'll run away before he reaches 5 arrows).

MV lists him with 30 arrows - should I take off 9 each time he cluster-volleys?


My concern is that when I GM I normally go into 'killer DM' mode, in the sense that I play the monsters realistically. Realistic for these guys is going to be ambushing the PCs from favourable terrain, something like:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh8AO64JKx0&feature=player_embedded"]this[/ame].

The way I see it going, the orcs ambush the PCs in a dungeon corridor, ravine, or forest trail, likely firing from elevation, possibly with surprise if they're sentries. First round 5 of them concentrate fire on 3 of the PCs, who each take several hits. Rinse and repeat a couple times (they might get two volleys off before the PCs act), and several PCs are down and the party is in big trouble.

I think in general 4e underrates artillery for my play style, and I've been very careful about using them. This looks like an extreme case.

 

[bganon]

I'm reading the Orc's other (single-target) ranged attack as +11 vs AC. +9 vs AC is level+5, which is actually a little lower than guidelines for an artillery monster. Low/mid/hi AC for level 4 PCs is something like 15/19/23, he's not going to hit everybody.

Artillery are supposed to hurt; using five against an equal level party that's deliberately disadvantaged shouldn't be a cakewalk. The party will survive the first round unless every archer hits the entire party, and once the PCs get their turn the tide quickly turns in their favor, as the Archers have low hp and terrible melee attacks.

[edit: holy ninjas, I take way too long to write]

 

[SparqMan]

This exact monster brutalized my PCs when they were encountered in HS2. In a single round, three clustered volleys almost brought them to (and succeeded ultimately in bringing them to) TPK.