D&D General Orcs on Stairs (When Adventures Are Incomplete)

[Retreater]

Like, I presume The Wild Beyond The Witchlight isn't missing as much as some, because I haven't seen any "Argh pls help" or "Let's improve" threads about it (I may just have missed them though), whereas Dragon Heist has caused countless (and having looked at it when I had access via DDB - I may still, not sure - I could see why).

Yeah. Witchlight specifically I'm not interested in, but I think it's partly because nobody is talking about it, and all I can go off is the art and blurbs Wizards have released.
Maybe no one is running it? Maybe it's a terrible adventure (or maybe it's great)?

 

[Retreater]

1. I don't think plugging some holes and gaps in a published adventure is nearly the same in terms of time and effort as writing your own adventure. So, I think the "I might as well write my own adventure" response to finding some is either hyperbole or myopia. I mean, I am certain there are some adventures that are so fragmented that perhaps it would be easier to write your own, but most are not.

It depends on the scope of the adventure. Plugging the holes in a Rime of the Frost Maiden style of adventure is more work than a Sunless Citadel adventure. I would never sit down and try to plan out a campaign the scope of Rime. So yeah, that's more work because I wouldn't plan out levels 1-12.
Maybe that makes sense?

 

[Lyxen]

It's necessary WAY more often than it should be. Take Dragon Heist, not only is it a railroad it's even a bad railroad.

For me, that is one of the very worst adventures ever written, I have tried to avoid discussing it, because on that one I totally agree. But out of all the 5e publications, it's the very worst.

Sure it's not usually hard for an experienced DM, but for a new one, or for an experienced one hoping to save time - it's not great. Especially when it's billed as a complete product, but is anything but.

Is it ? I've browsed through the introduction, and it just says that it's an adventure, and in any case the DMG is pretty clear: "A published adventure can’t account for every action the characters might take." It needs some preparation.

Anyway, I think like, as usual, it's not black and white, there are better and worse adventures, and there are people who need more or less preparation or whose tolerance with products is limited or not so limited. It's all a question of degree.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Like, if the players just decide to get suspicious of a certain NPC early on, the adventure stops, and the entire logic of the adventure depends on this. We once had a CoC adventure end because one of the PCs just straight-up shot an obviously-evil NPC he didn't trust

If you have ever played Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal, there is a really horrible example of this trope. But I think more could be done to teach DMs how to do an on the spot rewrite when the players break the plot (which they will). In ye olden days there where articles on this kind of thing in White Dwarf, and to be fair D&D Beyond has started trying to do some of this sort of thing.

 

[el-remmen]

It depends on the scope of the adventure. Plugging the holes in a Rime of the Frost Maiden style of adventure is more work than a Sunless Citadel adventure. I would never sit down and try to plan out a campaign the scope of Rime. So yeah, that's more work because I wouldn't plan out levels 1-12.
Maybe that makes sense?

Yeah, I can see that. I have never run an adventure like that. Assuming it is broken into chapters, I would likely only tackle a chapter at a time as it became relevant. Never having looked at RIME, am I correct in guessing it assumes the PCs will tackle every chapter and not skip any or that any might become irrelevant based on earlier PC action?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

If you have ever played Baldur's Gate 2: Throne of Bhaal, there is a really horrible example of this trope.

I played it so long ago I don't remember anything about, but feel free to tell me lol!

Talking of CRPGs, in Dragon Age 2, there's a point with a companion NPC where they basically say "Oh I want to go gather these materials... for no real reason... it'd be fun, you'll help, right?" and to a lot of people the NPC's behaviour, suddenly solicitous when they're normally pushy, and the particular materials they want are obviously ultra-suspicious, like I immediately (correctly) assumed they were building a bomb. But the only options there are "just go along mindlessly and help" or "refuse to help, make it personal with them instead of explaining why, but also just shrug and forget about this incredibly suspect stuff". You can't say "I know you're building a bomb", you can't decide to investigate them or follow them, you can't try to stop them, you can't report them to the authorities, and so on. Obviously TT RPGs tend not to quite have this issue, but I've certainly come across places where similarly wild assumptions were made, like that PCs would just not investigate something.

I've seen the other direction too, of course, where some incredibly tiny, tenuous "clue" is supposed to spur an entire giant investigation, otherwise like only 1/3rd of the adventure happens. I don't know which one, but there was an early Shadowrun adventure like this. The clue was something you'd have to be kind of a lore expert to even see as a clue (and no checks were associated with it), and even if you knew it was a clue, knowing what to do in order to follow up on it kind of required you to know about a bunch of setting stuff you might not. Another SR adventure tried really hard to create a situation where we faced off with a "big bad" and it was going to be a three-way fight with some other baddies, but there was no possible outcome that resulted in the PCs gaining money, goods, reputation, or really anything, so it's like, what's our motivation, we just want to fight a terrifying monster and some other baddies because why? They didn't even really have loot. The PCs just got back in the car, drove off and left them to it. The adventure's conclusion just blithely assumed the PCs would stay and fight for zero gain, not even protecting innocents (what the heck kind of shadowrunner does that!).

 

[Retreater]

Yeah, I can see that. I have never run an adventure like that. Assuming it is broken into chapters, I would likely only tackle a chapter at a time as it became relevant. Never having looked at RIME, am I correct in guessing it assumes the PCs will tackle every chapter and not skip any or that any might become irrelevant based on earlier PC action?

Well, there are big chapters that contain smaller sections. For example, there's the Chapter that details the entirety of the Ten Towns area, with subsections about quests in each of the Ten Towns. And you're expected to run about half of them. Then the next Chapter is the region surrounding the Ten Towns, a little more distant and challenging. You're expected to run about half of them. You can also go back and forth from Ten Towns to the Icewind Dale chapters in various orders.
So it's fairly difficult to plug holes and be ready for any eventuality.

 

[James Gasik]

I mean, no adventure writer can help you troubleshoot all problems, that I think we can all understand. The issue is when there's a really obvious problem, and the writer didn't even comment on it.

Sunless Citadel has a door that's really hard to unlock- you're not meant to go here just yet! But when I ran it, the players got lucky and unlocked it right away, thinking it had a great treasure or something.

Then we lost the Monk to the half-troll priest, an encounter they were not prepared for.

And then there's stuff like the Obelisk encounter in Tomb of Annihilation. Why? Just...why?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I played it so long ago I don't remember anything about, but feel free to tell me lol!

The main villain, Melissan. I spotted "you are the villain" right off, and the game frustrated me at every turn when I tried to attack her, or even not do what she said. And it's not like my Intelligence 20 Kensai/Wizard was too dim to figure it out! There is a lesser one in Pillars of Eternity, where when confronted with the revelation that the gods aren't real, all the dialogue options are shocked and amazed, with no "yeah, yeah I figured that out weeks ago, tell me something I don't know".

Obviously TT RPGs tend not to quite have this issue, but I've certainly come across places where similarly wild assumptions were made, like that PCs would just not investigate something.

maybe some people are learning to DM from CRPGs?

 

[Medic]

1. I don't think plugging some holes and gaps in a published adventure is nearly the same in terms of time and effort as writing your own adventure. So, I think the "I might as well write my own adventure" response to finding some is either hyperbole or myopia. I mean, I am certain there are some adventures that are so fragmented that perhaps it would be easier to write your own, but most are not.

The only time consuming part is having a consistent world laid out before the campaign begins. Otherwise, it takes me an hour at most to prepare the next session to follow what happened last time, unless I need to make a map or mint a bunch of brand new NPCs. Making campaigns piecemeal is not the herculean task some seem to think it is.