RobotRobotI
First Post
Goolpsy said:
Don't underplay them, either. They're not animals. They might be more stupid on average, but that doesn't mean they're a bunch of dogs.
Orcs vs. Commoner Humans
- Thread starter Moonstone Spider
- Start date
Don't underplay them, either. They're not animals. They might be more stupid on average, but that doesn't mean they're a bunch of dogs.
tzor
First Post
First of all there are a number of strawmen in Moonstone Spider's scenario. First the area is described as a "village" but then it gets described as a "town." Generally speaking villages are not centralized and are not designed for defense. Families typically have their dwellings reasonably placed to be close to the community center but close to the area that they tend to farm. Craftsmen tend to be near the river. The local inn tends to be in a critical location on the general roads.
Given that, the average village would tend to be somewhat spread out. Orcs, even two dozen are not so brazenly stupid to attack everyone at once. They will pick out a family at the outskirts, and attack one building at a time. If discovered they will retreat, to attack again some other night.
Thus the encouner of 50 commoners is reduced to a number of smaller encounters spread out over a much longer period of time. More importantly the commoners have to do the defending ... collateral damage, threats to children, livestock, etc are significant threats to the commoners that the orcs can take advantage of. Pillage, plunder and terrify.
Given that, the average village would tend to be somewhat spread out. Orcs, even two dozen are not so brazenly stupid to attack everyone at once. They will pick out a family at the outskirts, and attack one building at a time. If discovered they will retreat, to attack again some other night.
Thus the encouner of 50 commoners is reduced to a number of smaller encounters spread out over a much longer period of time. More importantly the commoners have to do the defending ... collateral damage, threats to children, livestock, etc are significant threats to the commoners that the orcs can take advantage of. Pillage, plunder and terrify.
nogray
Adventurer
Goolpsy said:
No, not "plenty" of intelligence. Just not excessive stupidity. As RobotRobotI pointed out, they aren't animals and shouldn't be underplayed; they will consider very basic tactics and advantages. That, and a healthy dose of barbarism. There weren't any advanced tactics in the raid that I described. "Let's kill the guards before they see us and light stuff on fire to cause a panic," isn't equivalent to, "let's set up a flanking or distracting maneuver to draw their defenses to the east while the main force attacks from the west." (Not that the latter is a particularly advanced tactic, either.)
Last edited:
Orc tribes are a WARRING Faction
And the smiths spend many nights hammering away at crafting decent weapons.
All peasants NOT formerly with the nation's army or local militia are likely to be armed with a dagger, or possibly with home-crafted short bow and wobbly arrows.
We therefore announce the early demise of the peasant !
And the smiths spend many nights hammering away at crafting decent weapons.
All peasants NOT formerly with the nation's army or local militia are likely to be armed with a dagger, or possibly with home-crafted short bow and wobbly arrows.
We therefore announce the early demise of the peasant !
Moonstone Spider
First Post
But your tactics do rely on the Orcs sneaking up (Without any move silently or hide skills) on watchmen who most likely do have the spot and listen skills. And don't forget the village's dogs, which are useful not only for security but jobs like herding and keeping vermin away from the chickens. They have quite acute senses (For level 1 creatures) and will also bolster defenses.nogray said:
Tsoz: I'm not sure where you're finding strawmen in my argument. The town/village dichotomy is one I didn't think of but you're claiming that a village, which happens to be in orc-raided lands, will not be planned to defend against orc attacks. Isn't that like a group of people building their village in a dry riverbed and not having any plan that water might go through there later?
So, if the humans (Who are much smarter than Orcs) apply their own intelligent tactics to defense what can be done?
First a big mean dog or two in each house. It'll be a minor drain on resources but they're useful for a lot of other stuff too. This adds a major bolster to defenses, and provides a very sharp-eyed and eared watcher for the clumsy noisy orcs.
Second just build a fence. One a hundred feat or so away from the house will be fine. At night you bring your livestock inside this fence and let your dogs roam around inside protecting it.
In an attack the dogs will make enough noise to raise the dead, alerting the whole village in short order as other dogs take up the call. The other villagers will be showing up in a minute or two. The Orcs have, at most, ten rounds to climb a fence, manage to kill two dogs (And the orcs can count on losing at least four of their number to just two dogs and four humans in the process), Eight humans, and loot and burn. If they can't manage to steal whatever it is they want and escape by then (They can't) the rest of the village surrounds them and kills them all.
re
Orcs do die alot during their raids. Orcs expect to die during raids.
The orcs that survive gain levels. Thus if you are sending 24 orcs, at least 2 or 3 are probably lvl 2 to 4 fighters or barbarians who are leading the other orcs on the raid.
The standard orc listed in the MM is basically an orc commoner. The guy who is raised to be a warrior sent out on his first raid probably to die en masse until the army disperses. If you read about orc tactics, they basically form a Horde and just rush various human towns, villages, and cities until they destroy them or are destroyed. Orcs don't care if they die because their gods expect them to die in battle.
Orcs do die alot during their raids. Orcs expect to die during raids.
The orcs that survive gain levels. Thus if you are sending 24 orcs, at least 2 or 3 are probably lvl 2 to 4 fighters or barbarians who are leading the other orcs on the raid.
The standard orc listed in the MM is basically an orc commoner. The guy who is raised to be a warrior sent out on his first raid probably to die en masse until the army disperses. If you read about orc tactics, they basically form a Horde and just rush various human towns, villages, and cities until they destroy them or are destroyed. Orcs don't care if they die because their gods expect them to die in battle.
ya know, what you overlook is, even if orcs don't have ranks in move silently or hide, they can still make a roll to attempt it. further, even dumb animals use terrain to their advantage, as i'm sure orcs would, which could further modify their hide/move silently rolls. also, each 10 ft of distance adds +1 to the DC of the listen check for the commoners, and if they are distracted, say by sleep, looking longingly at the light and music from the inn, talking to someone else, that's another +5 to the listen check DC.
also, who needs a hide check in darkness? darkness provides concealment, and under the hide rules, "[t]otal cover or concealment usually...obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." total darkness is total concealment, and at the edges of torchlight (40-20 ft away) and laterns (60-30 ft away), creatures have a 20% miss chance and can make a hide check... though by this time, the orcs are probably about to charge, so who really cares about shadowy illumination?
like several posters above have mentioned, orcs, while dumb, are not retarded. a band of orcs will likely wait until night to attack, then a warband will sneak (half move, does not provide a negative modifier to their move silently DC) up to the edge of the sentry's illumination, then charge.
your village is toast.
again, just remember, you don't need ranks in move silently or hide to make a roll for it. too often people forget that.
also, who needs a hide check in darkness? darkness provides concealment, and under the hide rules, "[t]otal cover or concealment usually...obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway." total darkness is total concealment, and at the edges of torchlight (40-20 ft away) and laterns (60-30 ft away), creatures have a 20% miss chance and can make a hide check... though by this time, the orcs are probably about to charge, so who really cares about shadowy illumination?
like several posters above have mentioned, orcs, while dumb, are not retarded. a band of orcs will likely wait until night to attack, then a warband will sneak (half move, does not provide a negative modifier to their move silently DC) up to the edge of the sentry's illumination, then charge.
your village is toast.
again, just remember, you don't need ranks in move silently or hide to make a roll for it. too often people forget that.
Sejs
First Post
The commoners (assuming they're human)
- Have d4 hd, and no con mod. If they're hit, they're dead.
- Will have no armor.
- Is proficient in one simple weapon, likely club (it's commonly available), staff (ditto), sling (for hunting), or light crossbow (likewise). Most of them won't even have ready access to the one weapon they know how to use, and will be using tools as improvised weapons... taking a -4 to hit.
- Have Listen and Spot as class skills... but no general motivation to put ranks into the skills. With their 3 skill points per level your average commoner is going to be putting their efforts toward: A Craft or Profession that earns them their living, Handle Animal (which, let's face it, is pretty essential for most commoner-ing), and a few points here and there to Ride, Swim, and Use Rope. Unless you want to stat out every single commoner to account for the exceptions rather than the rule, you're looking at a general lack of awareness.
- Cannot see in the dark.
- Will likely spend their feats in a fashion similar to how they spend their skill points. Skill Focus (Craft or Profession) should be at the top of their list of feats to pick. Beyond that, Endurance, Run, Animal Affinity, and possibly another Skill Focus would be appropriate.
- Some of the commoners will be non-combatants. Elderly, young, scared silly, etc. All of the orcs showing up will be battle ready.
The bog-standard MM orcs:
- Have a level in warrior; +1 ba, d8 hd, proficiency with martial weapons, armor, and shields. Add to that the fact that the orcs have both the means and motivation to show up packing. They're the aggressors after all.
- Have a +3 str mod and a +1 con mod. They're walking in at a +4 to hit the commoners AC 10 (connect on a 6+). The commoners, with their +0 ba, no str mod, and good chance of having to eat a -4 penalty to hit for using an improvised weapon are going to have a much harder time tagging the orcs' AC 13 (connecting on a 17+). Unlike the commoners, the orcs can take a (uno) average hit and keep going.
- Have 60' darkvision and are packing ranged weapons that can likewise benefit from their str mod. Likewise, because they can see in the dark makes sneaking up on the commoners rather simple. Approach under cover of darkness, taking 10 on move silently and hide. Assume anyone on watch is also taking 10 on their appropriate notice-what's-up skill. The orcs have a -1 ACP from their studded leather. Counting in the range penalty (-1 per 10'), that means the orcs can get within 30' before they're spotted.
Well within javelin range.
Just off the top of my head, an appropriate tactic for the orcs to use would be: sneak up under cover of darkness, kill anyone you come across, then light a couple outlying buildings on fire. Move off a bit, then when the townsfolk come a runnin' to deal with the burning buildings, hit 'em from the side and slaughter everyone who showed up. Then move into town killing indescriminatly as you go, maybe occasionally lighting another building on fire to keep people confused and panicing. Drag off what you want, and leave the place a charred sepulchur behind you when you go.
- Have d4 hd, and no con mod. If they're hit, they're dead.
- Will have no armor.
- Is proficient in one simple weapon, likely club (it's commonly available), staff (ditto), sling (for hunting), or light crossbow (likewise). Most of them won't even have ready access to the one weapon they know how to use, and will be using tools as improvised weapons... taking a -4 to hit.
- Have Listen and Spot as class skills... but no general motivation to put ranks into the skills. With their 3 skill points per level your average commoner is going to be putting their efforts toward: A Craft or Profession that earns them their living, Handle Animal (which, let's face it, is pretty essential for most commoner-ing), and a few points here and there to Ride, Swim, and Use Rope. Unless you want to stat out every single commoner to account for the exceptions rather than the rule, you're looking at a general lack of awareness.
- Cannot see in the dark.
- Will likely spend their feats in a fashion similar to how they spend their skill points. Skill Focus (Craft or Profession) should be at the top of their list of feats to pick. Beyond that, Endurance, Run, Animal Affinity, and possibly another Skill Focus would be appropriate.
- Some of the commoners will be non-combatants. Elderly, young, scared silly, etc. All of the orcs showing up will be battle ready.
The bog-standard MM orcs:
- Have a level in warrior; +1 ba, d8 hd, proficiency with martial weapons, armor, and shields. Add to that the fact that the orcs have both the means and motivation to show up packing. They're the aggressors after all.
- Have a +3 str mod and a +1 con mod. They're walking in at a +4 to hit the commoners AC 10 (connect on a 6+). The commoners, with their +0 ba, no str mod, and good chance of having to eat a -4 penalty to hit for using an improvised weapon are going to have a much harder time tagging the orcs' AC 13 (connecting on a 17+). Unlike the commoners, the orcs can take a (uno) average hit and keep going.
- Have 60' darkvision and are packing ranged weapons that can likewise benefit from their str mod. Likewise, because they can see in the dark makes sneaking up on the commoners rather simple. Approach under cover of darkness, taking 10 on move silently and hide. Assume anyone on watch is also taking 10 on their appropriate notice-what's-up skill. The orcs have a -1 ACP from their studded leather. Counting in the range penalty (-1 per 10'), that means the orcs can get within 30' before they're spotted.
Well within javelin range.
Just off the top of my head, an appropriate tactic for the orcs to use would be: sneak up under cover of darkness, kill anyone you come across, then light a couple outlying buildings on fire. Move off a bit, then when the townsfolk come a runnin' to deal with the burning buildings, hit 'em from the side and slaughter everyone who showed up. Then move into town killing indescriminatly as you go, maybe occasionally lighting another building on fire to keep people confused and panicing. Drag off what you want, and leave the place a charred sepulchur behind you when you go.
The Thayan Menace
First Post
Standardized Orcs
-Samir Asad
Actually ... he's an orc warrior, with a 17 Strength score. In other words, he's a hardcore peasant killer.Celtavian said:
-Samir Asad
The Thayan Menace
First Post
What's the Problem?
-Samir
It all depends on how you want to portray the commoners. Some people are defiant in the face of danger; some are not.Moonstone Spider said:
-Samir
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