Orcus of Necromancer Games says "You were right, I was wrong"

[Wayside]

You advocated for 4e and continue to carry a torch for the edition. You are wrong, again, and will eventually admit it. You have been a leading cheerleader for the most damaging (hence worst) edition of D&D, bar none, a fact that will be widely admitted, I think, once 4e is no longer the “current edition.” You have aided and abetted the tulip speculation edition of D&D. You will eventually have to admit and apologize for that to have any shred of credibility as a publisher/public figure..

You've been a member long enough to know better.

 

[Umbran]

Yo! Listen up!

Don't be jerks. Don't start with the edition warring. It will not be tolerated.

I don't think I should have to say more than that - that I should have to say it at all is disappointing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

tulip speculation edition

Wow...THERE'S an analogy I wouldn't have made.

 

[AllisterH]

Again, it depends on WHAT level you're talking about.

By 15th level, yeah, I think a module designer should be allowed to think that a party has both FLY and Waterbreathing solutions readily available.

However, I don't think a 9th level party should be expected to have FLY or Waterbreathing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Again, it depends on WHAT level you're talking about.

By 15th level, yeah, I think a module designer should be allowed to think that a party has both FLY and Waterbreathing solutions readily available.

And again, assumptions get you in trouble.

That doesn't reflect the very real possibility that the party doesn't. Not everybody "optimizes" their PCs mechanically. Some people base spell selection and equipment choices almost entirely on PC or campaign-specific reasons.

For example, in our "epic level" party that has been active since 1985 or so (started in 1Ed, and updated as far as 3.X), only 1 spellcaster has Fly readied- and that only once- another has Druidic Shapechange, and one has a weapon with a 1/day Fly effect. That doesn't get it done for the party as a whole, and has, on occasion, led to splitting the party or outright retreat.

And only the one with Druid levels is prepared for underwater action.

Thus, despite the average level in the party being 19+, the party would face great difficulty, mission failure or even a potential TPK if Fly or Waterbreathing were the only options in a given situation, assuming the party wasn't forewarned of that (IOW, they could buy or make items that let them fly or survive submersion).

 

[AllisterH]

I kinda have to disagree....

I think at certain levels, a module designer should assume some BASIC stuff available.

We assume that by level 15 a fighter is going to have a +1 sword and similarly, at such a level, the party should have access to flight.

I personally just take issue with WHERE the assumption kicks in (level 9 is way too low, level 15, yeah, that definitely is high enough)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Flight isn't basic.

Flight is most commonly accessible as a 3rd level spell, then next through shapechanging of some kind.

But not everyone is a spellcaster or Druid, and not every spellcaster likes to buff partymembers. Or burn XP to make magic items.

And even more importantly, not every party has Fly as one of their renewable resources like a Sorcerer's spell or a Druid's shapechange, but rather as a potion or scroll or the like.

IOW, once its gone, its gone for good. And if it is expended before the crucial juncture...

So I say again: if a designer writes an adventure in which flight is the only way to succeed in the mission, then he's well advised to include some kind of access to flight that doesn't depend on the party already having that power before the adventure begins because to do otherwise could result in some ticked off players.

 

[vagabundo]

@ some of the responses.

Good idea to release those mod for 3.5x. Unfortunately I've moved to 4e, so I hope you manage to get some 4e stuff out the door.

Still you took a chance and made a decision, sometimes it doesn't work out; hindsight is 20/02 after all.

 

[Desdichado]

Well, Clark (if I can call you Clark). It’s a start. But you are not done admitting you were wrong, I think.

So. You held back 3X product, hoping to go 4e. And you were wrong.

So. You thought the GSL could be “fixed.” And you were wrong.

Congrats for starting your public confession tour (honestly). But your biggest mistake you continue to defend.

You advocated for 4e and continue to carry a torch for the edition. You are wrong, again, and will eventually admit it. You have been a leading cheerleader for the most damaging (hence worst) edition of D&D, bar none, a fact that will be widely admitted, I think, once 4e is no longer the “current edition.” You have aided and abetted the tulip speculation edition of D&D. You will eventually have to admit and apologize for that to have any shred of credibility as a publisher/public figure.

No. You are not done admitting you were wrong by a long shot.

But its good to see you making a start.

Whiskey. Tango. Foxtrot.

 

[Squizzle]

Wow...THERE'S an analogy I wouldn't have made.

Examined in the thrilling module Extraordinary Popular Dungeons and the Madness of Owlbears.