D&D 5E Order of damage and saving throw at hit (e.g. Giant Spider)

[Shiroiken]

It's totally the DMs call. Sage Advice has (using other examples) given the indication that damage is dealt all at once. This is because of various spells and effects that they made and didn't consider the potential consequences of. Personally, as a DM I ignore Sage Advice and go with what makes sense on a case by case example.

In the spider case, the person takes piercing damage from the bite, which causes them to go to 0 HP (dying). Then they take damage from the poison, which causes a failed death saving throw if it deals damage (assuming the poison deals damage). This is because the poison would be injected after the bite, and is a consequence of the bite. Also, if someone was immune to the piercing damage, for whatever reason, I would also have them be immune to the poison, as the bite didn't actually break the skin.

In the flaming sword case, both damages are actually independent and simultaneous to each other. You could choose to lay the flat of the blade on someone, causing them to take the fire damage, even if they don't take the weapon's damage. Additionally, such a weapon could not be used to subdue, as the fire damage would put them to dying.

tl;dr: it's the DM's call. Realism would dictate you are closer to correct. Gamism (for lack of a better term) would dictate that they are simultaneous and that you were wrong.

 

[redrick]

I could see this going either way and I think both calls are valid, for whatever it's worth. That being said, since we're specifically talking about a character being knocked unconscious and failing a death saving throw as a result of one hit, I would suggest some caution if you are learning about this / ruling it for the first time because a player has just gone down to a poisonous spider. It could suck to lose a character to what may be a surprise ruling.

So I might say, "alright, guys, next time something like this happens, it's going to mean a failed death saving throw as you hit the ground. be careful when you fight poisonous monsters or other monsters with nasty secondary effects! but this time, we're gonna say that your character is able to fight off the worst effects of the poison."

EDIT: Actually, as I realized below with a quote from the statblock, the Giant Spider poison damage actually paralyzes by design, so I would rule this as directed by the statblock. Stable, but paralyzed.

 

[Cernor]

If the spider's poison causes a failed death save, then you've neatly danced around the reason the spider has poison, regardless of whether or not the damage is simultaneous. The damage of the poison is secondary to the fact that the poison is meant to stabilize the PC and keep them paralyzed.

Spiders aren't interested in killing you, at least not in open combat. They'd rather drop you to 0 so you're stable and paralyzed, then drag you off to its lair, wrap you up, and drain you dry while you're still fresh (like Shelob!). If the poison caused a failed death save, then the spiders might be deprived of a perfectly good meal for no reason other than the dice made them do too much bite damage, and they then have no way to otherwise stabilize the creature (other than careful application of their poison). Unless the bite causes instant death via massive damage, I'd personally rule that the poison's effects that take place upon dropping a creature to 0 hit points also take effect when damaging a creature that's already at 0 hit points.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I rule that in the case of no save, such as with the Flying Snake, the damage is dealt simultaneously. Therefore it is doubled on crits, requires one Concentration save, and just takes the target to zero.

In the case of a save, as with the Giant Spider, I rule that they are two separate sources of damage (albeit, dealt simultaneously). Therefore only the bite damage is double on a crit, two Concentration saves are required, and a target taken to zero by the bite would technically gain a failed death save from the poison. While I do think that last part is how it is intended, I'm merciful on that point and don't give them an extra death save.

Really, it's the DM's call, but I'd say that if a Giant Spider takes a target to zero hp with the bite, the target is unstable but if they manage to stabilize, they're paralyzed by the poison. Not RAW, but reasonable I think. Maybe the spider chomped on a vein when injecting the poison and the character bleeds out despite the spider's intent to drag him back to its web.

 

[Jester David]

Since they're all part of the same action, I'd treat them as occurring simultaneously.

 

[redrick]

If the spider's poison causes a failed death save, then you've neatly danced around the reason the spider has poison, regardless of whether or not the damage is simultaneous. The damage of the poison is secondary to the fact that the poison is meant to stabilize the PC and keep them paralyzed.

Spiders aren't interested in killing you, at least not in open combat. They'd rather drop you to 0 so you're stable and paralyzed, then drag you off to its lair, wrap you up, and drain you dry while you're still fresh (like Shelob!). If the poison caused a failed death save, then the spiders might be deprived of a perfectly good meal for no reason other than the dice made them do too much bite damage, and they then have no way to otherwise stabilize the creature (other than careful application of their poison). Unless the bite causes instant death via massive damage, I'd personally rule that the poison's effects that take place upon dropping a creature to 0 hit points also take effect when damaging a creature that's already at 0 hit points.

This is probably the best reply if you're doing a good job with your monster objectives. Giant spiders want to feed off of live, paralyzed prey, therefore they will seek to incapacitate and paralyze them. (Unless the spiders are protecting a nest or similar, instead of hunting, in which case they might be more interested in removing the threat as quickly and effectively as possible, even if it means missing out on an extra meal.)

Actually, bringing up the Giant Spider stat block, I see the following: "If the poison damage reduces the target to 0 hit points, the target is stable but poisoned for 1 hour, even after regaining hit points, and is paralyzed while poisoned in this way."

So, yeah. The spider's poison is "non-lethal damage," mechanically designed to induce paralysis in its opponent. So I'd definitely rule this as "stable but poisoned/paralyzed for 1 hour" in either case. Unless the spider is going up against a level 1 wizard and the piercing damage would cause an instakill.

 

[fjw70]

Since they're all part of the same action, I'd treat them as occurring simultaneously.

I would too, but I can see the argument to treat them separately.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

With the giant spider, the reason it is a relevant question is that it makes sense that if the piercing damage alone is sufficient to reduce the character to 0 hp, then the poison damage isn't going to kick-in and stabilize the character.

Because of the particular way giant spider poison interacts with 0 hp, I would recommend, in this particular case, to see if the piercing damage reduces them to 0 hp. If it does so they are dying, and the non-lethal poison damage is irrelevent. If the piercing damage doesn't take them to 0 hp, but the poison does, the rules as written are clear that they are at 0 hp but stable.

 

[redrick]

With the giant spider, the reason it is a relevant question is that it makes sense that if the piercing damage alone is sufficient to reduce the character to 0 hp, then the poison damage isn't going to kick-in and stabilize the character.

Because of the particular way giant spider poison interacts with 0 hp, I would recommend, in this particular case, to see if the piercing damage reduces them to 0 hp. If it does so they are dying, and the non-lethal poison damage is irrelevent. If the piercing damage doesn't take them to 0 hp, but the poison does, the rules as written are clear that they are at 0 hp but stable.

While I agree that a close reading of the statblock would follow this — the character is only stabilized if the poison brings them to zero, not the piercing — I also think the situation is better handled by stabilizing and paralyzing either way. After all, the spider's objective is certainly to stabilize the character, so why should we split the difference with a situation that neither the spider nor the character want? (Dead PC.) It feels like killing a PC on a technicality. (And if the argument is that the character would rather be dying, as he's likely to be healed by a teammate before bleeding out, that would be escaping the poison on a technicality.) I would find it believable that a giant spider's poison would actually contain some stabilizing elements in addition to paralyzing the character. Is hunting for the spider like a game of darts? Bite your victim hard enough to bring it close to zero, but make sure you don't go over? In this scenario, it seems a bit of a crap-shoot as to whether or not the spider kills its prey outright or preserves it with poison.

I think paralyzing a character for an hour is sufficiently terrifying, without needing to kill them. Of course, if the character is paralyzed and his allies are also knocked out or chased off, then the spider will drag him back to his web and probably finish him off before too long.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

While I agree that a close reading of the statblock would follow this — the character is only stabilized if the poison brings them to zero, not the piercing — I also think the situation is better handled by stabilizing and paralyzing either way. After all, the spider's objective is certainly to stabilize the character, so why should we split the difference with a situation that neither the spider nor the character want? (Dead PC.) It feels like killing a PC on a technicality. (And if the argument is that the character would rather be dying, as he's likely to be healed by a teammate before bleeding out, that would be escaping the poison on a technicality.) I would find it believable that a giant spider's poison would actually contain some stabilizing elements in addition to paralyzing the character. Is hunting for the spider like a game of darts? Bite your victim hard enough to bring it close to zero, but make sure you don't go over? In this scenario, it seems a bit of a crap-shoot as to whether or not the spider kills its prey outright or preserves it with poison.

I think paralyzing a character for an hour is sufficiently terrifying, without needing to kill them. Of course, if the character is paralyzed and his allies are also knocked out or chased off, then the spider will drag him back to his web and probably finish him off before too long.

Good points. I'm not sure how I'd run it, but I think taking into account how the spider is intended to be using its venom is probably a good idea.