Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[This Effin’ GM]

I had OA back in the day, but I don't recall much about it, except that I thought the older Bushido game was better. Has L5R taken any flak?

Doesnt L5R specifically relegate itself to Japanese Lore? I think part of the issue with OA was that it tried to mix too much together and reinforce the idea that the cultures were interchangeable.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I got this book for my twelve birthday. At the time, I loved it. I actually considered it 'grounded' compared to some other Asian themed properties of the time because a OA character ported back over to core standard 1e was not far-and-away strictly better. It had interesting mechanics, martial arts was a fun subsystem, wu jen and sohei and the other options were interesting new takes on the spellcasting classes. However, even then, it did not take me long to realize that it treated Asian people as somehow more fantastic and mystical than D&D usually treats actual fantastical creatures.

 

[TerraDave]

Huh?

These tend to be discussions about discussions (about discussions and sometimes yes about discussions).

There is very little reference to the actual text...whatever it might be.

 

[Twiggly the Gnome]

Doesnt L5R specifically relegate itself to Japanese Lore? I think part of the issue with OA was that it tried to mix too much together and reinforce the idea that the cultures were interchangeable.

The thing along those lines I remember from L5R was having a religion called Shintao.

 

[Davies]

These tend to be discussions about discussions (about discussions and sometimes yes about discussions).

There is very little reference to the actual text...whatever it might be.

Become the change you wish to see in the discussion.

 

[Hussar]

/snip I think part of the issue with OA was that it tried to mix too much together and reinforce the idea that the cultures were interchangeable.

This is pretty much spot on.

If OA had simply billed itself as Fantasy Japan, they would have gone a long way. I mean, IIRC, in the foreward to the book, one of the inspirations is James Clavell's Shogun. Which would be fine and would have worked.

But, they then took Japanese culture, language and various other bits and bobs, erased China and templated Japan over China. Given the 20th century history of these two countries, that's a REALLY bad idea. Never minding that Oriental basically skipped anything that wasn't Japan or China - poor Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia and whatnot get a really short shrift. HIstorically, the Khmer empire (what is now Cambodia) would fit much better in the sort of quasi-historical period of D&D. The site of Angkhor Wat was one of the largest cities in the world at the time.

But, yeah, it would be like taking a map of Great Britain, overlaying it with German names, German culture, religion and history and then calling the book European Adventures.

Not something that would fly.

 

[Professor Murder]

I think the OP here can come from a legit, well meaning place. In that spirit, here are simple steps to determining if a gaming book that depicts a real world culture or one which creates a pastiche of that culture is racially insensitive.
1) Do not go to a generic gaming forum, even a well meaning one, such as this one, or a hellscape such as the one depicted in the quoted post.
2) Search online for existing discourse of the work by actual members of the affected cultural group.
3) Do not ask them "Hey! Is this Racist?"
4) Read what they have to say on the subject.
5) Believe them. Even if they didn't prove it to your satisfaction. That's not how this works.
6) Do not offer your own input. Make your own, informed choices.

It is noble to learn you are wrong and to change accordingly.

 

[Sacrosanct]

This is pretty much spot on.

If OA had simply billed itself as Fantasy Japan, they would have gone a long way. I mean, IIRC, in the foreward to the book, one of the inspirations is James Clavell's Shogun. Which would be fine and would have worked.

But, they then took Japanese culture, language and various other bits and bobs, erased China and templated Japan over China. Given the 20th century history of these two countries, that's a REALLY bad idea. Never minding that Oriental basically skipped anything that wasn't Japan or China - poor Korea, Vietnam, Cambodia and whatnot get a really short shrift. HIstorically, the Khmer empire (what is now Cambodia) would fit much better in the sort of quasi-historical period of D&D. The site of Angkhor Wat was one of the largest cities in the world at the time.

But, yeah, it would be like taking a map of Great Britain, overlaying it with German names, German culture, religion and history and then calling the book European Adventures.

Not something that would fly.

Yeah. One of the things I learned real quick living in Korea was that you don’t really say anything good about Japan without getting a ton of dirty looks. With good reason considering the history. I can only imagine how offended I’d be as a Korean if someone just overlayed Japanese culture over my own, especially knowing that history. Yikes. And it happens all. The. Time.

 

[Argyle King]

For my own education, can I ask for a few points of clarity on the D&D community's desires?

•In some threads, I've seen it suggested that it is cultural appropriation to whole-cloth use a realworld culture as inspiration for writing -and that mixing and matching things (i.e. dwarves being Scottish Vikings or tribal orcs being a mix of African and North American Native). But, here, I'm reading that mixing is viewed negatively because it does not respect real-world animosity between cultures. So, which approach -mixing or not mixing- is seen as better for the purposes of writing fantasy material?

•I often see it said that voices of people from the cultures in question have authority on determining whether something is offensive or not. In many ways, I agree with that. However, I'm also alive during a time when Matt Damon was criticized (by what mostly appears to be European-Americans) for doing a Chinese film, despite the fact that he was specifically wanted for the film to suit Chinese audiences.

So, as a general rule, how much weight do you feel a member of a specific culture/group has when discussing an issue related to said group -and does that weight change determined by whether something is or is not seen as offensive?
How does (or doesn't) that apply differently when someone has mixed heritage? (I ask because a reason I stopped going to rpg.net is because I understood a moderator's response to something I said to mean that my opinion was seen as less valid due to not counting as enough of the community being discussed.)

•What do you feel are some of the most egregious abuses found in OA?

I think I own the D&D 3.5 version, but I mostly bought it just to have more monsters to use at the time. Present day, I've converted a little bit of the material to a GURPS hand I run.

If I am unknowingly doing something offensive, I would like to be aware of it and possibly get suggestions about how I might still use the content but do so in a more respectful manner.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Imagine an RPG from a Chinese publisher about the American West, in which they outsource the writing about Native American and Mexican cultures to Ammon Bundy.

Whether or not OA is racist, it's just embarrassing.