Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[AbdulAlhazred]

Bit offtopic but given the location it may be a useful datapoint: Manhattan Barnes and Nobles and Borders were stocking RPG books into the 1990s. Used to be one of my favorite things to sit with a coffee and keep up with the edition changes to White Wolf and D&D. (Yes, I bought them afterwards!)

Yeah, I know in 2008, right after 4e came out, I went into the local B&N, and they had a ton of 3e stuff, 4e stuff, and a couple dozen other RPGs and many of their supplements (I remember there was Mongoose Traveller, which I bought a copy of, and a bunch of the newer WW stuff, etc.). They kept up a pretty good stock of stuff too, at least for the next 3-4 years because I patronized that store quite a bit and they were always getting in new RPGs. Given the amount of 3e stuff that was there for a couple years after 4e came out my assumption is they had been stocking at least D&D for quite a while. Honestly, I am pretty sure they never stopped once they started carrying stuff back in the 80's.

 

[Cadence]

I think a lot of people are not comprehending how difficult it is to be poor (and what it means for your quality of life). I am sorry but I just don't see how you can honestly believe this is the case in the US. I can see arguments for there being disadvantages to being dark-skinned, but someone with dark skin and a good income is far, far, far better off, and taken far, far, far more seriously than someone who is whatever skin color and poor. Your job, the car you drive, your zip code are much more important. And if you are poor enough that you are struggling to put food on the table: there is no question that is the single biggest disadvantage you can have. You can pile other disadvantages onto that for sure, and some would certainly compound the situation (for example someone who is disabled, especially in the US with its healthcare system and its lack social programs) is going to have a much harder time than most others getting out of poverty.

Figure out what percentile different incomes are for being white or for being black in America. And I'm guessing being in the lowest 5% of black is a lot worse off than the lowest 5% for being white. Which doesn't mean that anyone in the lower levels of wealth isn't having an awful time!

I always thought it would be interesting to have a sci-fi TV series where everyone woke up one morning to have three numbers holographically appear on their foreheads. Part of it is figuring out that they're percentiles showing where they started as a kid, how lucky they were since then, and how hard they worked since then in percentiles, and part of it is what it makes folks realize about themselves. (I'm guessing my 1st number is middle to high, my 2nd number is pretty darn high and my third number is embarrassingly low).

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think a lot of people are not comprehending how difficult it is to be poor (and what it means for your quality of life). I am sorry but I just don't see how you can honestly believe this is the case in the US. I can see arguments for there being disadvantages to being dark-skinned, but someone with dark skin and a good income is far, far, far better off, and taken far, far, far more seriously than someone who is whatever skin color and poor. Your job, the car you drive, your zip code are much more important. And if you are poor enough that you are struggling to put food on the table: there is no question that is the single biggest disadvantage you can have. You can pile other disadvantages onto that for sure, and some would certainly compound the situation (for example someone who is disabled, especially in the US with its healthcare system and its lack social programs) is going to have a much harder time than most others getting out of poverty.

Ehhhhh, I think it is more complicated than that. My first wife is QUITE black, and not even African American, she's just plain straight up an African girl. So, she comes over here, busts her arse, gets trained in a lucrative field, and starts working as a professional. EVERY SINGLE DAY she could tell me about the people who threw her racial appearance in her face. It was often not exactly vicious, but it was all pretty cruel and hurtful. Now, she was obviously not poor. She is also just incredibly good at what she does and super capable, found the very best people in the world to train her, etc. She is a person whom NOTHING will really hold back, and AFAIK she's done quite well. OTOH she did NOT grow up in the 'you are trash' culture of the US, and to her 'poor' would mean 'lives in a mud hut' etc. However I had quite a few black friends in college, and man did they usually get short shrift, poor or not. I agree, being poor is no picnic, it holds a lot of people back in various ways, but I'd MUCH rather be poor than be a minority, as its actually pretty easy for competent people to fix their wealth problems. Heck, I've been dead broke a couple of times. It was annoying, for sure, but then I didn't grow up that way either. Both are bad, anyway.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Perhaps it is our respective lenses in which we are viewing conversations on ENWorld, but I don't see a lot of folks downplaying the impacts of poverty. Certainly not in this thread. I certainly didn't.

I

I see it a lot. Especially when it bumps up against identity issues. For example when someone is told they have privilege and their response, perhaps because their very poor, is to mention their economic struggles. Rather than respond to that with the same degree of empathy I see people in that camp have when it is an issue of identity, so often, when it is economic the response is always something like “well you may have trouble paying the Bills but you aren’t X” (or variations on this sentiment.). And I think that sentiment really underestimated the mammoth effect poverty has on the quality of a persons life. It also underestimated what it means to struggle to pay bills. There is a vast gulf in the US between someone who is poor and someone who is doing just fine or well off (in significant, material ways that amount to more than mere ‘challenges’). And it is very hard to get out of poverty once you are there

 

[Hussar]

Heh, regarding the Satanic panic stuff. I have to admit, I never encountered it. One of my very first DM's was an ordained minister. My best friend in high school, who gamed with me, was Mennonite and his dad was a minister. The whole Panic thing just completely passed me by.

 

[beancounter]

Heh, regarding the Satanic panic stuff. I have to admit, I never encountered it. One of my very first DM's was an ordained minister. My best friend in high school, who gamed with me, was Mennonite and his dad was a minister. The whole Panic thing just completely passed me by.

Yea, the Satanic panic must have been isolated to certain parts of the country, because neither my parents or any of my friends parents forbad us from playing.

 

[Hussar]

Ehhhhh, I think it is more complicated than that. My first wife is QUITE black, and not even African American, she's just plain straight up an African girl. So, she comes over here, busts her arse, gets trained in a lucrative field, and starts working as a professional. EVERY SINGLE DAY she could tell me about the people who threw her racial appearance in her face. It was often not exactly vicious, but it was all pretty cruel and hurtful. Now, she was obviously not poor. She is also just incredibly good at what she does and super capable, found the very best people in the world to train her, etc. She is a person whom NOTHING will really hold back, and AFAIK she's done quite well. OTOH she did NOT grow up in the 'you are trash' culture of the US, and to her 'poor' would mean 'lives in a mud hut' etc. However I had quite a few black friends in college, and man did they usually get short shrift, poor or not. I agree, being poor is no picnic, it holds a lot of people back in various ways, but I'd MUCH rather be poor than be a minority, as its actually pretty easy for competent people to fix their wealth problems. Heck, I've been dead broke a couple of times. It was annoying, for sure, but then I didn't grow up that way either. Both are bad, anyway.

This was the point I made WAAAY upthread. The whole thing about asking people to stop using these sorts of stereotypes and whatnot isn't aimed at punishing or blaming. It's that after people have stepped on your toes a hundred times, it doesn't matter to you if the 101st person meant to or not. The only thing you want is for people to stop stepping on your toes.

When you are a minority, that's the way it is. Someone is constantly stepping on your toes, deliberately or unintentionally, maliciously or innocently. After a while, when you're on the receiving end of that, intent stops mattering. You just want it to stop. Because it hurts and it sucks and "Oh, well, I didn't really mean it" doesn't matter anymore.

That's why things like disclaimers are important. It's a clear recognition of a problem. The thing is, when you compare the music disclaimers to the disclaimers by WotC, you have to remember that the people asking for these disclaimers are coming from very, very different places. Disclaimer or not, those opposing Heavy Metal music or Rap Music, or whatever, were never fans of the music. They had no interest in becoming fans of the music. They were never going to be part of the community around that music. They just wanted to tell other people what to do.

The difference for WotC is that gamers, people who are in the community, people who would like to be in the community and be a part of the community are standing up and saying, "Hey, we LIKE this community. We are PART of this community. But, this bit of the community - whether it's chainmail bikinis or things like Orcs of Thar or Oriental Adventures - makes us feel unwelcome. Could you at least recognize that it makes us uncomfortable and spread the word that this sort of stuff isn't really what the community is about?"

Comparisons to the Satanic Panic of the 80's really miss that fundamental point MADD and whatnot were never interested in becoming a part of the community. Those that are bringing up things like Oriental Adventures DO want to be part of the community.

 

[FrogReaver]

Heh, regarding the Satanic panic stuff. I have to admit, I never encountered it. One of my very first DM's was an ordained minister. My best friend in high school, who gamed with me, was Mennonite and his dad was a minister. The whole Panic thing just completely passed me by.

I was born in the late 80's so didn't directly experience most of it. But I did I encounter remnants of it in the early 2000's from friends with parents that sincerely believed most of what gets referred to here as 'satanic panic'.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yea, the Satanic panic must have been isolated to certain parts of the country, because neither my parents or any of my friends parents forbad us from playing.

Maybe. Or maybe it was your part of the country that was isolated from it moreso than the other way around. I don't know the answer here - just posing the question.

 

[Cadence]

Heh, regarding the Satanic panic stuff. I have to admit, I never encountered it. One of my very first DM's was an ordained minister. My best friend in high school, who gamed with me, was Mennonite and his dad was a minister. The whole Panic thing just completely passed me by.

Northern Illinois, and I don't remember it hitting us at all in the early or mid-80s - either at the two local FLGSs, the book stores, or with my friends.

I think one of the LGSs was owned by Jeff Perren of Chainmail fame, and the owner of the other was playing at all the conventions and hangouts that the Lake Geneva folks were in the early days. Maybe they learned some spells to protect them from all the hubbub...