Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Mordhau]

Sounds a lot like chivalry, and the fact that the English King who made the biggest deal about chivalry, Edward III, was also the one who first introduced long bows and cannons into medieval warfare.

 

[aramis erak]

In re: "Asians Represent" - if their complaint is grounded in total ignorance, it damages their credibility overall.

Legend of the Five Rings does this weird thing where it wants to keep the Japanese diet centred around sea food, (and goes even stricter by putting prohibitions on meat) but in a China like empire.

It really doesn't make sense for people hundreds of kilometres inland to forgo meat for a diet of fish.

L5R only has the samurai and Noble castes being fish and fowl; the other castes eat red meats. From what histories I have read, that's fairly accurate, even in the highlands.

L5R also makes itself clear: Rokugan isn't Japan. D&D3.5 OA wasn't Rokugan, but included things needed for Rokugan, and for Kara Tur, and for several other things, but only clearly indicated the Rokugan elements. Half of OA isn't suitable for L5R.

It's also worth noting that Edge Studios (from Spain, IIRC) have announced they are doing a new D&D5E L5R setting book.
3.5 OA was bad as L5R, bad as D&D, bad as Kara Tur, and just not a good thing for anyone.

And it's very well done too.

But, yeah, the issue of Asia=Japan has a lot of historical reasons. Pop culture being a huge one. Hollywood bought into the whole ninja/samurai schtick for a very long time. Power Rangers and Sailor Moon. Going all the way back to Godzilla and Gatchaman. Most of us who grew up watching American TV, saw "Fantasy Japan" on TV far more than "Fantasy China" or "Fantasy India". Never minding places like Korea or the Phillipines. Outside of MASH, has anything referenced Korea?

Granted, now, we're seeing a HUGE explosion of K-pop and other Korean culture stuff being exported. My Netflix cue is full of stuff out of Korea. Some of it pretty damn good. I mean, Squid Game was pretty darn cool.

Rolling that back into the 80's or even the late 90's/early Oughts when the original OA and the 3e OA were being written, and it's not really all that surprising to see "Fantasy Asia=Fantasy Japan". Doesn't excuse it, mind you, but, it's not exactly shocking either.

True, but the Chop Sockey genre was almost entirely Taiwaneese...
Most of the crime dramas were using Chinatown and Chinese theming instead of Japanese.

Japanese was being imported as a set of specific subgenres and Chinese was being filtered through the Westerns, the police procedurals, and the American Immigrant experience. Only one show comes to mind showing both the clash of immigrant values and home-nation values, and doing so with any sensitivity at all, in the 70's and 80's: Hawai'i Five-O. It also touched on Native Issues. In the 1960's, 1970's, and early 1980's.

The reasons why some groups want to censor Maus, and others are simply pointing out problematic elements of Oriental Adventures . . . . completely opposite sides of the spectrum.

Maus is excellent. But it's not suitable for elementary schools. There is, however, a noted sociopolitical stripe within the US that are holocaust deniers, amongst other things... So Maus is a problematic issue, because some of the voices for it think it's all lies; some thing

Nobody is telling people they cannot play OA and arresting them if they show it to their friends (or even play it in a class in school).

Sure feels like it.

I think its a bit dangerous to compare acts of outright censorship and equate them to criticism. That is not even noting the rather large differences in subject matter between the two things, and thus the reasons WHY one might not like it.

When the critics are advocating for censorship, things get less cut and dried. I've seen critics calling for censorship IN THIS THREAD! One posted feels that the original and 3.5 OA shouldn't be available in PDF.

And, because of the factual issues brought up with the Asians Represent analysis of the Comeliness stat, as criticism goes, they've lost enough credibility that I won't be listening to anything they're saying. It indicates either a lack of research (it's easy to check that Comliness predates OA), or a desire to be offended, or perhaps even intellectual dishonesty. I don't know which, and don't care which.

Was OA a problem back in the day? Yes, but IMO, not for the racism. It was bad mostly because it was cumbersome to use in play. The Honor system was a bookkeeping nightmare. As was the Face system. AD&D Non-Weapon Proficiencies were an option in AD&D1, but strongly encouraged after UA, and almost mandatory in OA. This annoyed a lot of DMs. The book was mechanically divisive BITD; that the setting was insensitive? Most were. Most still are.

Fundamentally, if your game incorporates any culture other than the present day of your places of residence and/or upbringing, you're going to be using tropes and stereotypes. RPGs are not a cure for systemic racism; they're not even big enough a market for anyone to really pay attention to outside the RPG market. D&D is maskable in a rounding error for HasBro, even if D&D is a significant minority of WotC's income. And they are, at best, schematic and/or trophic in their coverage of any culture.

I make no bones about it: I love several cultural appropriation games: L5R, Feng Shui, Warhammer FRP, Blood & Honor, Elf Quest, Pendragon...
I don't think any were done with intent to offend; I do know that some find them offensive.
If Nyambe had used a better engine, I'd have given it a shot... but it stayed too stock D&D 3.x...

 

[Mordhau]

In re: "Asians Represent" - if their complaint is grounded in total ignorance, it damages their credibility overall.

And, because of the factual issues brought up with the Asians Represent analysis of the Comeliness stat, as criticism goes, they've lost enough credibility that I won't be listening to anything they're saying. It indicates either a lack of research (it's easy to check that Comliness predates OA), or a desire to be offended, or perhaps even intellectual dishonesty. I don't know which, and don't care which

What it is, is basically a book club reading that's recorded. It really needs to be understood in that context. The people doing it are also not really true experts. (In the Legends of the Five Rings podcast this book was recommended - I had red flags coming up for me within a few pages so I looked up the author - sure enough I discovered the author is a controversial western 'expert' who apparently doesn't speak any Japanese.)

You have to understand what it is, it's a group of educated asian people reading gaming takes on asia and seeing how it strikes them as they go, which means the way they feel about what they are reading may also change with that. It's the sort of thing you'd usually do for your own understanding and edification and write up any conclusions you come to later, but because we live in the 2020s, the raw discussion is the product, which can be a problem in a whole lot of ways. It's naturally going to include all sorts of speculative interpretations.

For all I know if you keep watching they might acknowledge at some point that they were wrong about the origins of the comeliness stat. (I suspect the number of people who have watched the whole reading of OA all the way through is probably pretty small - and of those who did, they were probably watching it while doing other things, which would suggest they probably missed a lot anyway.)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

RPGs are not a cure for systemic racism; they're not even big enough a market for anyone to really pay attention to outside the RPG market.

True.

But they also shouldn’t have a pass on perpetuating it, either.

 

[gamerprinter]

Seppuku, gutting yourself, was always about honor, but was as often used as protest, rather than a deed you do, due to your dishonor. Nobunaga's samurai commander recommended his lord not make a certain action, which would bring dishonor on the cause. Because Nobunaga disregarded his advice, the commander committed seppuku as protest against his lord's actions. It did affect Nobunaga's future.

 

[aramis erak]

What it is, is basically a book club reading that's recorded. It really needs to be understood in that context. The people doing it are also not really true experts. (In the Legends of the Five Rings podcast this book was recommended - I had red flags coming up for me within a few pages so I looked up the author - sure enough I discovered the author is a controversial western 'expert' who apparently doesn't speak any Japanese.)

You have to understand what it is, it's a group of educated asian people reading gaming takes on asia and seeing how it strikes them as they go, which means the way they feel about what they are reading may also change with that. It's the sort of thing you'd usually do for your own understanding and edification and write up any conclusions you come to later, but because we live in the 2020s, the raw discussion is the product, which can be a problem in a whole lot of ways. It's naturally going to include all sorts of speculative interpretations.

For all I know if you keep watching they might acknowledge at some point that they were wrong about the origins of the comeliness stat. (I suspect the number of people who have watched the whole reading of OA all the way thorugh is probably pretty small - and of those who did, they were probably watching it while doing other things, which would suggest they probably missed a lot anyway.)

Given their misattribution of attack... they are NOT getting that chance, because they look from the outside like they're looking to find offense.

If one goes into a book looking to be offended, almost all have something one can find to take offense to. That they made that particular error strongly implies ignorance of the subject they're reviewing, and especially of the context in which it was written. WHich, for me, are further red flags.

Which basically means I'm not going to bother with pretty much anything from them, as I have a presupposition that they're looking to be offended, and I have enough toxic in my life.

And while I want to see good representation, I don't buy in to the "only a given ethnicity should be allowed to write a game about that ethnicity" nor that trope-based gaming is bad, even when those tropes are stereotypes.

Every fantasy RPG is a cultural appropriation. If that's not acceptable, get a different hobby.... Or write a better game.

True.

But they also shouldn’t have a pass on perpetuating it, either.

They don't. The players may, but the games themselves only do so if the players/GM buy into it.

 

[Dire Bare]

Given their misattribution of attack... they are NOT getting that chance, because they look from the outside like they're looking to find offense.

If one goes into a book looking to be offended, almost all have something one can find to take offense to. That they made that particular error strongly implies ignorance of the subject they're reviewing, and especially of the context in which it was written. WHich, for me, are further red flags.

Which basically means I'm not going to bother with pretty much anything from them, as I have a presupposition that they're looking to be offended, and I have enough toxic in my life.

And while I want to see good representation, I don't buy in to the "only a given ethnicity should be allowed to write a game about that ethnicity" nor that trope-based gaming is bad, even when those tropes are stereotypes.

Every fantasy RPG is a cultural appropriation. If that's not acceptable, get a different hobby.... Or write a better game.


They don't. The players may, but the games themselves only do so if the players/GM buy into it.

When the book's title is "Oriental Adventures" . . . that alone primes the pump!

 

[Dire Bare]

In re: "Asians Represent" - if their complaint is grounded in total ignorance, it damages their credibility overall.

No. Just no.

L5R also makes itself clear: Rokugan isn't Japan.

Rokugan isn't Japan. But it is largely based on Japanese myth and culture. That brings with it a certain responsibility.

D&D3.5 OA wasn't Rokugan, but included things needed for Rokugan, and for Kara Tur, and for several other things, but only clearly indicated the Rokugan elements. Half of OA isn't suitable for L5R.

Heh, setting aside any cultural issues . . . Oriental Adventures 3E was a mess. When I picked that title up, I was not familiar with "Legend of the 5 Rings" other than an awareness it was a card game. Trying to parse out what did and didn't belong in this setting from that book . . . I was so confused. Turned me off L5R for a long time. I might check out the upcoming D&D 5E take you mentioned.

And almost immediately on the heels of that book's publication, WotC sold off L5R to AEG (yes, it's more complicated than that). I did, however, really enjoy the line of support books published by AEG . . . I wonder how a read-thru on the Asians Represents podcast would treat that product line.

Maus is excellent. But it's not suitable for elementary schools. There is, however, a noted sociopolitical stripe within the US that are holocaust deniers, amongst other things... So Maus is a problematic issue, because some of the voices for it think it's all lies; some thing

Maus is rarely a part of the curriculum for elementary schools, if ever. It's usually assigned at the middle or high school level. Having that particular stripe of American culture doesn't make the book problematic, although it does sadly make it political. At least, not problematic in the sense we're talking here regarding OA.

Sure feels like it.

When the critics are advocating for censorship, things get less cut and dried. I've seen critics calling for censorship IN THIS THREAD! One posted feels that the original and 3.5 OA shouldn't be available in PDF.

And yet, that's not what's happening at all. The one poster you reference upthread (unless I missed somebody) mentioned they felt it might be better if WotC pulled digital/pod publication of the title. Didn't demand it, just felt it might be the right call. That's not a call for censorship.

Most voices are simply calling for awareness, and a drive to do better.

And, because of the factual issues brought up with the Asians Represent analysis of the Comeliness stat, as criticism goes, they've lost enough credibility that I won't be listening to anything they're saying. It indicates either a lack of research (it's easy to check that Comliness predates OA), or a desire to be offended, or perhaps even intellectual dishonesty. I don't know which, and don't care which.

Nope. No loss of "credibility". The podcast is a "first look" reaction series. Not a researched textual analysis. Regardless of any "errors", the panelists first reaction is their honest first reaction.

The "mistake" regarding the Comeliness stat is something just about anybody could make, it's only D&D super-nerds who can follow the tricky history of when that canard was introduced to the game. And . . . mistake or not . . . they are reacting to the inclusion of a new rule focused on beauty that doesn't sit well with orientalist views on Asian beauty. But, we've covered that already upthread, so . . .

That isn't their only "mistake" . . . . but it doesn't blow any credibility or invalidate the opinions and voices of the podcast panelists, and the other Asian-descent gamers who've expressed similar views in the past.

I don't think any were done with intent to offend

Of course not. No one in the podcast or this thread has accused the designers of these games of racist intent.

I love most of the games you list. But it doesn't mean I can't listen to folks who express concerns with how they treat race and culture, respect and accept those views. And still love those products, warts and all. I'm just a lot more careful about how I use them at the table, and I'm a more aware consumer when looking for new products influenced by cultures other than my own.

 

[gamerprinter]

L5R also makes itself clear: Rokugan isn't Japan. D&D3.5 OA wasn't Rokugan, but included things needed for Rokugan, and for Kara Tur, and for several other things, but only clearly indicated the Rokugan elements. Half of OA isn't suitable for L5R.

It's also worth noting that Edge Studios (from Spain, IIRC) have announced they are doing a new D&D5E L5R setting book.
3.5 OA was bad as L5R, bad as D&D, bad as Kara Tur, and just not a good thing for anyone.

Kind of funny, it was Gencon 08 or 09, I forget which, I walked up to the L5R booth (forget who the publisher was), and looked at their new edition hardback. Because I am a pro cartographer for the game industry. Naturally, I went straight to the Rokugan map as the first thing to look at, just after opening the book for the first time. I did a double take and noticed an error on the map, almost immediately - and I pointed out to the publisher at the table. He said, "you're right!" Just a look at that map, told me, I probably would issues with this game. That was the only time I ever looked at L5R - I knew about the card game, though never played that either...

 

[gamerprinter]

Creators create things. Writers write, artists make art, and game designers produce games. They make deliberate decisions that convey information and emotion. None of them, presumably, want to convey negative impressions unintentionally. So they do the work. Collaboration, research, whatever, to make sure the lane is clear. At the very least they can glance into the rear-view mirror before swerving.

Honestly, I don't care if thoughtless would-be game designers who are inclined to publish without reflection and insight are dissuaded from publishing. In fact, that's probably a good thing. Actual creative people will continue to work, and we'll get better games out it.

I do all those things! Though I'm better at some of it, more than others, but I do it all. I do publish for other author/game designers, but am too cheap to hire out art, and as good a cartographer as I'll ever otherwise find at what I charge myself for doing it, so I'll just call myself a creator. I honestly cannot conceive of creation and being thoughtless at the same time - I cannot separate the two.