Oriental Adventures, was it really that racist?

[Scars Unseen]

Probably. But as it gets used in todays climate? No. I am not a fan of how deplatforming and cancel culture tend to get applied (which is usually to exaggerate a person's offense, pressure a platform to remove them, and tar anyone who even likes, agrees, or defends them with the same). I don't support social ostracization, and I don't support taking away a person's livelihood (especially given how dangerous it can be for a person in a country with a weak social safety net). I am not going to say never because I can imagine scenarios where someone is using a platform to stalk someone, or engineer violence against a person. But as I've seen it used in the hobby, on twitter, etc? I think it brings out the worst in us, makes us more tribal and weakens our ability to engage one another.

Agreed. I've posted this video before, but Lindsay Ellis' harassment is a good example of how our tendency to jump to judgement of not only content, but the people making said content can be substantially harmful. It's worth noting that while she says she's fine in that video, after 6 more months of constant harassment, she quit, going so far as to say she regretted ever making anything at all.

Making purchasing, reading and viewing decisions based on your own standards and sense of ethics or morals is something we all can and should do on a daily basis where possible. But we should be cautious of joining a mob, be it physical or online, because the mob is neither ethical, nor moral. The mob is momentum, and once it gets going, it often hurts those vulnerable to being hurt more than it does people deserving of censure. And when those people get hurt, everyone who played a part in building that momentum earns at least a small part of the blame.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I find this a cynical way of approaching the world and other people. I do think, if your intent is misconstrued or misinterpreted in a given situation, there's a natural impulse to attempt to explain. But again, intent is hardly relevant; whatever I intended, if I hurt someone I ought to apologize and maybe learn to be more careful about such things.

But to approach every person's declaration of pain with skepticism at whether they are "faking it" or not is absolutely bleak to me, and unfair to humanity writ large

I didn't say approach every declaration of hurt or pain with skepticism. In fact, I think if you've paid close attention to my words, I am have emphasized being empathic and caring about peoples pain. But if you do have to use your judgement in the world. People can lie, people can be wrong, people can misread things, they can be overly sensitive, people can exaggerate things, people can offer up an easy answer sometimes. When you disagree with someone's assessment of media, which is what we are doing here (even if that assessment is they think it is hurtful) then you should disagree if that is your honest opinion.

And in the toe example, I was saying if they over react (like by punching you in the face) you should be able to say something. Or if they were to try to seek damages (and you genuinely thought they were lying) you ought to challenge it. If you stepped on someone's toe and they are clearly in pain, off course, you ought to apologize.

But this isn't about stepping on someone's toe. It is about a piece of media and there is a lot of subjective judgment in evaluating it for the kinds of problems people are talking about.

 

[Hussar]

The poverty level for blacks in the U.S. in 2019 was 21.2%. The poverty levels for whites in Harlan KY was 30.7%. Is being white from Harlan KY worse than being black in the U.S. When it comes to poverty the statistics suggest yes.


Statistically being black in the U.S. makes you less likely to be in poverty than if you are white and from Harlan KY.

Umm, the population of Harlan KY is just shy of 1500 people. There are just shy of 42 million African American people in the US. Perhaps your statistics don't really say what you think they say.

 

[FrogReaver]

Umm, the population of Harlan KY is just shy of 1500 people. There are just shy of 42 million African American people in the US. Perhaps your statistics don't really say what you think they say.

Harlan KY, the county has over 25,000 people.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I don't see why not; I've given an example of someone who used it to strike at writers twice now. And that's what I've been talking about, how chilling this can become and how it can end up easily instead of just stopping racist or appropriational material, it ends up creating a climate where people will simply steer clear of the topics entirely. People have dismissed that when it comes up, and I think they're being way too blithe.

Yeah, and how is that happening with WOTC? Like, part of the brigading situation is that the individual is being attacked by a mass. I don't see that happening to WOTC here.

Yes.

Why wouldn't I? The comparison clearly shows that whites from high poverty areas in the country experience more poverty than blacks from low poverty areas. That seems a pretty important point if we are going to talk white privilege.

No, it doesn't. The point of "white privilege" is that you don't have to deal with certain things that other people have to do regardless of their poverty level. You've completely sailed past the point of the phrase in your attempt to concern-troll.

Sure, and there's important information to be gleaned from that comparison as well. But that's not the only valid comparison.

I mean, I would disagree because in not comparing statistics on the same scale you completely distort the actual meaning of the numbers.

See, you get how this works

A better point for you is that 46.8% of blacks in Harlan KY are in poverty. Which is quite a bit higher than that of the white population of Harlan KY.

I think we can acknowledge both points - that blacks on average experience higher poverty when compared to whites from the same locations and that whites in some locations experience much higher poverty than blacks from other locations. Do you agree with this? If so what does that mean to you in relation to white privelege?

I think we can acknowledge that comparing poverty rates misses that there are problems and hurdles that minorities have to deal with that white people of all stations generally don't, which is why it's called "white privilege", though to your point it's pretty clear that, like @Bill Zebub said, that "white privilege" obviously has economic effects as well.

 

[Hussar]

Harlan KY, the county has over 25,000 people.

Really, really doesn't change the point. In fact, you've now completely derailed your own point by providing information that people IN THE SAME AREA are more disadvantaged due to race.

I'm really, really not sure what you're trying to prove here.

 

[Dire Bare]

You know . . . I think I'm done with this thread. As seems to be the case each time these types of discussions come up, a handful of folks go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and lessen the harm of the sexist and racist elements of D&D's development, history, and current form.

Is Oriental Adventures racist? Yes. It wasn't intended to be, and it's not the worst thing out there . . . but, yes.

Is Oriental Adventures relevant anymore? Situationally, yes. Not as a supplement to a game anyone is playing anymore (AD&D 1E), but as a springboard into discussing the continuing problems D&D has with race and culture.

Is there a mob out there brigading or canceling those involved with publishing Oriental Adventures back in 1988? Or even later products in the line (2001's Oriental Adventures 3E)? No. Nada. Zilch.

Are the complaints about Oriental Adventures from Asian-gamer voices "chilling" non-Asian authors who want to include Asian cultural content in their products? Nope. Nada. Zilch.

Are Asian-gamer voices, and their non-Asian allies, simply asking for awareness and for us to do better as a community? Both at our tables and in new products? Yes.

Do the Asian-gamer panelists of the podcast Asians Represent, well, represent all Asian voices on this subject? No, not that anyone was claiming it to be so. But we should listen to their voices, and those of other Asian-gamers.

Does it matter than the Comeliness score was first introduced to AD&D in Unearthed Arcana, a few months before appearing in Oriental Adventures? Do the Asian-gamers who see this as problematic make a mistake? No. Also doesn't matter than other games include "honor" systems as well.

If you purchased Oriental Adventures back in the day, used it in your games, and truly enjoyed the book and what it brought to your game table . . . are you a terrible racist person who should feel guilt over this? Of course not. But hopefully you'll listen to the voices of Asian-descent gamers in our community and try to do better at your tables than we did back in 1988.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Agreed. I've posted this video before, but Lindsay Ellis' harassment is a good example of how our tendency to jump to judgement of not only content, but the people making said content can be substantially harmful. It's worth noting that while she says she's fine in that video, after 6 more months of constant harassment, she quit, going so far as to say she regretted ever making anything at all.

I'd like to make note that with Lindsey that she had plenty of enemies and that her harassment was beyond just a "cancelling" and largely everyone who had sharpened knives for her coming out at that moment because they could. I know you brought this up before and I do agree it's a good example... but it's also got a whole lot of things going on and is more complicated, which is why it ended up being such a firestorm and so "successful".

You know . . . I think I'm done with this thread. As seems to be the case each time these types of discussions come up, a handful of folks go through all sorts of mental gymnastics to try and lessen the harm of the sexist and racist elements of D&D's development, history, and current form.

Some people are more interested in trying to question the questions rather than looking at answers. That's how it is.

 

[FrogReaver]

Really, really doesn't change the point.

Hussar, the size of the total population of either group doesn't impact a statistical discussion on liklihoods based on being a member in either group.

In fact, you've now completely derailed your own point by providing information that people IN THE SAME AREA are more disadvantaged due to race.

Not at all. My point never depended on that. Which is part of why you see me freely acknowledging it. My point was that certain groups of white people are worse off than certain groups of black people. This fact is relevant in the discussion of white privilege. Why? Because it shows that many blacks are substantially more privileged (at least economically) than certain geographical groups of whites. Being in severe poverty affects pretty much everything in your life and is one of the hardest obstacles to overcome - as has been stated by others.

I'm really, really not sure what you're trying to prove here.

That might have been a good thing to lead with

 

[Scars Unseen]

I'd like to make note that with Lindsey that she had plenty of enemies and that her harassment was beyond just a "cancelling" and largely everyone who had sharpened knives for her coming out at that moment because they could. I know you brought this up before and I do agree it's a good example... but it's also got a whole lot of things going on and is more complicated, which is why it ended up being such a firestorm and so "successful".

True, but I also don't think that's a unique situation. Most people that put themselves out there are going to have their detractors (putting it very mildly) looking for an opportunity, and of many of those who do, it's often going to be because of who they are rather than what they do. The same kind of people who drove Near (the author of the Higan emulator) to suicide will gladly latch onto other online mobs who have found a mutually "acceptable" target even if it's for completely opposite reasons. It's why I'm generally averse to joining my voice to any discussion that has a person as its target, even if the ostensible reason behind it is benign or in line with my own opinions. Too many opportunities for it to turn ugly.

Which, admittedly, isn't really the thing going on with this specific topic, so I guess treat that like the tangent it is.