Origin of liches question.

FrankTrollman said:
Dictionary.com has a pronounciation symbol for its vowel that I simply can't find anywhere: "[i^]". That doesn't match the "i" in "pitch", the "i" in "like" or the "e" in "leak". Since it is Old English - I think it is pronounced like "Leash" or "leak". That "i" is the same as the IPA "i" - which would be like the one in "shield" - said like an English double e.

-Frank

Actually, it is in there, but you do have to dig pretty hard to find it. It's the i with the carat on top of the letter, like the 'i' in pit.

But that's just the I. Now, is the ch a 'sh', a 'ck', or a 'ch' sound?
I've always though 'ch', but I thought I was wrong there for a while in researching it. Then I found out something.

LICH can be argued as deriving from old english 'lic' or the old german word 'lyk'. For that matter, there's apparently a vietnamese word spelled very similarly and meaning a very similar thing (corpse). There is also a LICH sound in Mandarin that may or may not mean the same thing. About the the time I found more than one language feeding into the origin of the word, I gave up and started hunting rhymes - possibly one of the best ways to learn how to pronounce something you've read.

This is what I found:

Words and phrases that rhyme with lich:

1 syllable:
blitch, britsch, ditch, fitch, fritch, fritsch, fritsche, fritzsche, glitch, hitch, ich, itch, kitch, kitsch, klich, krych, mich, mitch, mitsch, niche, nitsch, nitsche, nycz, piche, pitch, pitsch, rich, riche, ritch, snitch, stich, stitch, switch, triche, tritch, tritsch, twitch, which, wich, witch, zich


So I'm guessing I was right in the first place on the pronunciation.


Now, where do I find examples of Liches in the Real World??
 

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In Russian folklore there is a greatand evil wizard called Kolchak (not sure on spelling) the Deathless. He kept his heart in a nut that was hidden beneath a tree next to a lake etc... basically nowhere the likes of you could find it. He had spells and was all but invunerable as long as you didn't have his heart. Sounds very lich like to me.

I second the call to look for Buddist mummies. The whole ritual involved in that sounds very lich like to me.
 

Stormborn said:
In Russian folklore there is a greatand evil wizard called Kolchak (not sure on spelling) the Deathless. He kept his heart in a nut that was hidden beneath a tree next to a lake etc... basically nowhere the likes of you could find it. He had spells and was all but invunerable as long as you didn't have his heart. Sounds very lich like to me.

I second the call to look for Buddist mummies. The whole ritual involved in that sounds very lich like to me.


You mean something like this: http://www.sonic.net/~anomaly/japan/dbuddha.htm

quote:



In August, 1998, I had the unusual pleasure of meeting a dead Buddhist priest face-to-face. I was on a pilgrimage to three sacred mountains in the Yamagata prefecture, and had stopped for the night at a town in short distance of the first of these, Haguro. That town, Tsuruoka, just happened to be home to one of the mummified Buddhist priests that I knew existed in Japan, so I couldn't resist the opportunity to visit. At the time, all I knew about these mummies was that #1) they existed, and that #2) these gentlemen had somehow volentarily mummified themselves while still alive. I've since learned more.
For the record:
Tetsuryou-kai [1815-1877]
At Nangakuji temple in Tsuruoka, Yamagata prefecture. This is the particular mummified Buddha that I visited in 1998.
Estimates of the number of self-mummified priests in Japan range between sixteen and twenty-four priests. Impressive though this number is, many more have tried to self-mummify themselves; In fact, the practice of self-mummification -- which is a form of suicide, after all -- had to be outlawed towards the end of the 19th century to prevent Buddhist priests from offing themselves this way... and yet the grand majority of priests who have tried to do this have failed. The reasons will take some explaining -- but first, some background on the whole practice and the reasons for it.
For those of you new to Buddhism, the basic premise of the religion is that the whole of the phenomenal world -- everything you can see, hear, touch, experience -- is just an illusion that prevents you from seeing what is really true; that you are part of a greater being that stands separate and beyond our phenomenal world. As long as you don't see this, you will be continually reborn back into this world in an endless series of illusionary lives. So the goal of Buddhist priests is to separate themselves from this world enough that at death they become one with the greater being known as Buddha instead of being re-born into this world yet again.
What this adds up to is that some Buddhist sects -- most notably the Shingon sect -- attempt to train their priests to deny the importance of their physical selves through a variety of self-mortification, such as the classic example of sitting for hours under ice-cold waterfalls while meditating. Ideally, as a priest becomes more like the greater Buddha, they will be far less concerned about themselves than others; one classic tale told and retold in Japan is the story of how Gautama [the founder of Buddhism in India, and the guy Americans usually think of when they say "Buddha"] chose to be reborn as a rabbit so that he could throw his body on a fire to feed a devotee that was starving. Personal life and death does not matter; but being kind to your fellow beings and guiding them towards self-realization of their greater connection to Buddha does.
Careful! Don't confuse Buddhist Shingon priests with Christian flagellants... the flagellents hurt their bodies out of a sense of guilt; they needed to punish themselves to atone for sins. The Buddhists hurt their bodies to train their minds to ignore the physical world.
So truely devote Buddhist priests are not afraid of death; but they don't normally seek it either, as this too would be an abnormal obsession with the physical world. The priests that chose to practice self-mummification were usually all older men, who knew they had limited time left to their lives anyway... and since the practice takes years to lead to a sucessful death and mummification, it cannot be characterized as an attempt to reach enlightenment quickly as a normal suicide might be. Rather, the intended purpose of this practice for these priests is to both push their ability to disregard their physical selves to the limit of their ability, and to try and leave an artifact of this struggle that will stand as a symbol of their beliefs to those that are priests after them.

How to be a self-made mummify
Scientific study of the mummies and the process that created them only began in the early 1960's. It was generally expected that the mummies studied would show signs of having been mummified after death by other priests, in much the way Egyptian mummies -- and almost all other mummies on Earth -- have been created. The first step in that process is the removal of the internal organs, because the bacteria in these begin the process of decomposition within hours of death; with these removed, it is relatively easy to prepare, dry, and preserve the remainder of the body. But x-rays discounted this expectation... the internal organs were intact, which meant that mummification had been accomplished in some new way that scientists had not yet encountered. So the process itself was next investigated.
The actual practice was first pioneered by a priest named Kuukai over 1000 years ago at the temple complex of Mount Koya, in Wakayama prefecture. Kuukai was founder of the Shingon sect of Buddhism, which is the sect that came up with the idea of enlightenment through physical punishment. There were three steps in the process of self-mummification that Kuukai proposed, and the full process took upwards of ten years to lead to a successful mummification.
The first step is a change of diet. The priest was only allowed to eat nuts and seeds that could be found in the forests surrounding his temple; this diet had to be stuck to for a 1000 day period, a little under three years. During this time, the priest was to continue to subject himself to all sorts of physical hardship in his daily training. The results were that the body fat of the priest was reduced to nearly nothing, thus removing a section of the body that easily decomposes after death.
In the second stage, the diet became more restrictive. The priest was now only allowed to eat a small amount of bark and roots from pine trees. This had to be endured for another 1000 day period, by the end of which the priest looked like a living skeleton. This also decreased the overall moisture contained in the body; and the less fluid left in the body, the easier to preserve it.
Towards the end of this 1000 day period, the priest also had to start to drink a special tea made from the sap of the urushi tree. This sap is used to make laquer for bowls and furniture; but it is also very poisonous for most people. Drinking this tea induced vomenting, sweating, and urination, further reducing the fluid content of the priest's body. But even more importantly, the build up of the poison in the priest's body would kill any maggots or insects that tried to eat the priest's remains after death, thus protecting it from yet another source of decay.
The last step of the process was to be entombed alive in a stone room just big enough for a man to sit lotus style in for a final 1000 day period. As long as the priest could ring a bell each day a tube remained in place to supply air; but when the bell finally stopped, the tube was removed and the tomb was sealed.
When the tomb was finally opened, the results would be known. Some few would be fully mummified, and immediately be raised to the rank of Buddha; but most just rotted and, while respected for their incredible endurance, were not considered to be Buddhas. These were simply sealed back into their tombs. But why did some mummify and some not? This is the tricky part of the whole process.
It is not clear if this is part of the process as set down by Kuukai, but in Yamagata is a sacred spring. This spring is on a mountain called Yudono, which is in fact the third sacred mountain of the three I visited in 1998. Many of the priests in the area considered both the water and the mineral deposits from this spring to have medicinal value, and may have injested one or both previous to their entombment. An analysis of the spring water and deposits revealed that they contain enough arsenic to kill a human being! Arsenic does not get eliminated from the body, so it remains after death... and it is toxic to bacteria and other micro-organisms, so it eliminated the bacteria that started the decompostion of the body.
As you can see, the process of self-mummification was a long and extremely painful process that required a mastery of self-control and denial of physical sensation. The self-made mummies of Japan are people who have earned the respect now shown to them, as they exemplify the teachings of the Shingon sect of Japanese Buddhism.
 

As for your 'Kolchak' - I believe you meant Koschei or Kaschei (it varies)


And you're right - he's a perfect example of a lich in mythology...

quote:

Koshchei the Deathless for his supposed invulnerability; noted for being the abductor of beautiful princesses. He is a powerful wizard or demigod who gains immortality by keeping his fiery soul hidden. He kidnaps Marena (Mara, Marya Morevna), the Russian goddess of death. He tells her the location of his soul, which she tells the story's hero (usually a son or husband: Dazhdbog, Prince Ivan, Prince Astrach, etc.). Koshchie is the son of Vij, lord of the Underground, and travels on a war-horse or as a whirlwind.

quote:

Kashchei
Alternative Names: Koshchei
Type/Species: Serpent
Origin: Russian Folklore
History: In some tales, Kashchei is a non-dragon (wizard) creature that is much like the hag Baba Yaga (only Koshchei is male). However, just as many tales point out Kashchei to be a Russian dragon.

Kashchei's full title was "Kashchei the Deathless", for he was considered to be invulnerable. He abducted a princess as well as Marena, the goddess of death. He was able to keep his soul immortal by hiding it.

Symbolism: Some mythologists say that Kashchei is a personified evil spirit pertaining to the weather. He was often connected to winter as well as death.

Physical Description: As I know it, Kashchei is a boney, snake-like dragon that stands on two legs and has two arms.



The physical resemblance to Trogdor the Burninator is just downright scary :)


References:

http://www.blackdrago.com/famous_russian.htm#kashchei

http://www.geocities.com/cas111jd/slavs/slavgods_2.htm

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/k/koshchei.html
 

I'd like to point out that while these stories are an influence on the Lich, the big one was a Robert E. Howard Conan story featuring a skeletal undead wizard...
 

Rhialto said:
I'd like to point out that while these stories are an influence on the Lich, the big one was a Robert E. Howard Conan story featuring a skeletal undead wizard...


Ah... I had perceived the request to be for real world mythos and legends from history. I found a few additional references into Sumerian and Babylonian legends that seem to have fed into early, pre-dynastic, egyptian legends, but they were difficult to track down, and the thread had died out.



fyi - I'm an internet research assistant - i.e. semi-professional.



Did you want fictional references to liches as well? I'll warn you - there's one heck of a lot of them :)
 

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