Originality

Eysia

First Post
Hi, all.

This is my first post on this forum (well, the second actually - the first was identifying myself as a Mac user in another thread ;-). I got introduced to EN World during the entry period for the WotC setting search. Reading all 54 pages of that thread really got me thinking about... originality.

Someone posted a checklist of characteristics that they felt most of the fantasy settings would have (e.g. flying cities, demons attack). I shook my head happily that I didn't see any of my ideas on that list. I felt that I had come up with something that was not only not a twist on a previous idea, but was actually quite different from anything mentioned.

Now, I won't tell you what that idea was (fingers-crossed I'll get to the bible stage) but I would like to talk about possible approaches to originality.

When you sit down to think up something that is beyond your experience and the common experience of your group, do you work outside-in or inside-out?

my definitions:
Outside-in meaning that you come up with general archetypical themes (e.g. global apocalypse) that may be derivative but then fill in specific details that make your ideas unique (e.g. eating candy bars caused everyone to die off).

Inside-out meaning that you come up with specific archetypical details (e.g. "I'm not left-handed either" - from Princess Bride) and then expand to general themes that are unique (e.g. body-hopping space bandits have driven all left-handed people insane causing the global apocalypse).

Does this distinction matter to you? Is this a principle that you use in your work? Are there other techniques that you use to help yourself develop original ideas? Or.... is there really no such thing as an original idea?

-Eysia
 

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I think there's still some original ideas out there, as well as original combinations of old ideas...

The inside-out/outside-in distinction you make, however, is not one I use. Creativity and originality don't seem tied to any particular methodology, so I use whatever pathway seems useful at the moment.

I notice you left off one path: sideways-in. Thinking about one thing that give inspiration for something unrelated. Also known as "mental hopscotch".

"Gee, these strawberries are great. I should have a farmer's revolt in my game..."
 

Eysia said:
Hi, all.

This is my first post on this forum (well, the second actually - the first was identifying myself as a Mac user in another thread ;-).

Salutations,

Welcome.

Boooo for being a Mac user (sorry, it is too tempting to resist).

Does this distinction matter to you?

Not really - since I will use both methods when putting together my world.

For my central "concept", I have been big into survival campeigns lately- especially environmentally dangerous ones.

The way I tend to start is I think of myself and what would scare, anger, or motivate me if it happened in the real world.

Then I think about how some of my favorite characters would react to such an event in their world.

And finally I try to think of new characters I could make and would enjoy playing in a world that is built around that event.

My current world is a flooded world- it was done by Marid to defeat the Roman-like empire that once controlled world.

And, to be honest, I don't worry if an idea is original or not. I figure out what will have the longest span of adventure potential for me to explore.

This is easier when I am running a story-campeign, since I already have the climax of the campeign in mind from the beginning.

In a setting-campeign, this becomes a major issue. If I try to be too clever and original- then I may write myself into a corner where I am forced to betray the original nature of the campeign just to write adventures for it.

Ideally, what will make the campeign original is not just the ideas I put in it, but the characters the players bring to the table. If I created a world they feel comfortable using and exploring with their characters, then it will be original because they will bring something to the world I had not planned on.

I add to this by giving xp for them to write up a segment of their character's origin. A city, religion, geographic area, or whatever I approve of.

FD
 

Umbran said:
I notice you left off one path: sideways-in. Thinking about one thing that give inspiration for something unrelated. Also known as "mental hopscotch".

"Gee, these strawberries are great. I should have a farmer's revolt in my game..."
ROFLMAO!!!!

The above is how I typically throw twists into my game and characters. The problem with it is that continuity suffers...but it makes for fascinating plot lines.
 

Eysia said:
is there really no such thing as an original idea?

Socrates and Plato thought that only gods had original ideas, but they had obviously never heard of Darwin or Buckminster Fuller.

Regards,


Agback
 
Last edited:

Eysia said:
do you work outside-in or inside-out?
I alternate, rapidly, filling up the space between the inside and the outside with a sort of zig-zag pattern. That way I get to move sideways by an alternation of rather staggery forwards and backwards steps.

As it happens, I have a description lying around about how I did the framework threads of one of my more successful campaigns and its setting, which I will post in case anyone is interested. I have changed the name of the campaign so as not to run a risk of tipping the nod to one of the WotC SS panel members, but even so I guess I ought to post a spoiler warning and ask you not to read any further if you are on the selection panel for the WotC setting search.

--

HOW I BUILT GEHENNUM

My friends at university and I had been playing a lot of HindSight in Tonio Loewald's setting 'Fvaldanon', and also a lot of ForeSight in my SF setting 'Flat Black'. We used to have a lot of time for RPGs back then. Anyway, I wanted to GM some fantasy, and my prospective players felt like a break from Fvaldanon's high-latitudes continental (and quasi-European) setting.

One idea that had been festering in my mind for some months was that 'religion' in fantasy settings usually combines mythology, powerful supernatural beings, and moral standards, and that these things didn't necessarily belong together. I decided that I would experiment with a world in which mythological entities were prominent, but the 'gods' of the Sun, the Sea, etc. were also real, and of a different nature and significance, _and_ moral codes would come from secular and speculative philosophies, largely separate from the two classes of gods.

Then I was watching the old movie "The Ghost and Mrs. Muir" on TV, and a couple of things struck me. One was that when Mrs. Muir first went to the house, she felt as though it was welcoming her, even though the ghost was hostile. I thought of somehow putting the PCs in a haunted house where the god of the house wanted them to stay (and repair and maintain it), while the ghost was sullen and hostile. The other was the phrase "Charm'd magic casements, opening on the foam/ Of perilous seas in fairylands forlorn." (it's Keats, from 'Ode to a Nightingale').

I realised that I would need to have something to keep the characters in the haunted house and in conflict with the ghost: a crucible, though I did not then think of such things in those terms. Then I had the idea that it might be a castle that they were given by a king as reward for fulfilling a quest. But why would a king give people a haunted castle (and make them stay in it) as a reward? Obviously, because he didn't want them to complete the quest, even though he said he did. Perhaps he wanted somebody else to complete the quest. Perhaps the entire quest was a setup to allow him to reward somebody, and he was really piqued that the PCs had jumped his favourite's claim.

That seemed like a good idea, but it obviously suggested some things about the setting. For a start, the king was under some sort of constraint: he had to make an excuse to reward his favourite. I decided that the kingdom would be an amalgam of conquered states, and that the descendants of the former monarchs of the subsumed states would have some sort of legislative power over the king. So I had a king and a house of lords: I decided to throw in a house of mayors to give the commons some clout, and this suggested city-states to me. So I gave the cities an old democratic tradition.

The usual reward for completing a quest for a king in fairytales is his daughter's hand in marriage and successor-ship to the kingdom. I toyed with the matrilocal patriarchy ideas of James Frazer, but I'd already done that in something else, so I thought that maybe this king had an only daughter, and that her husband would be heir-presumptive. Why? Perhaps he was estranged from his wife, like the Prince Regent/George IV from Princess Charlotte (IIRC). Why should her not simply divorce her, and marry another wife? Or just take another wife? There has to be monogamy, obviously. And maybe some other authority had control over his ability to divorce? What about the houses of lords and mayors? At one time a divorce in England required an Act of Parliament.

I ended up deciding that divorce in this country would require proof of wrong-doing, and that a wrong-doing against the king would count as treason. and I decided that the nobles (including the Queen) would have a right to trial by the house of lords, not by a judge appointed by the King. The Queen's sympathisers in the house of lords would not give the King a divorce, because that would mean finding the Queen guilty of treason.

Obviously, the King's regime is pretty unpopular. What, then, keeps it going? This was beginning to look like a big bold sort of setting, so I thought it better not be anything too subtle. I decided that the King's regime was maintained by Count Jasper of Souvenir, whom everyone was scared of. Obviously, Jasper had a corps of much-feared secret police. To make sure that Jasper was feared and loathed, and to make the PCs think twice about fooling with him, I established that he had conducted thorough purges of the Royal Family, the nobility, and the leading lights of the democratic tradition. But then, why has the King not simply had Jasper kill the Queen. Very likely Jasper is not devoted to the King, but has another agenda and supports the king to a limited extent and for his own reasons. Jasper is a man of some principles: he will summarily execute the King's relatives to maintain the regime, but not do the same to the King's wife to indulge the King. To make this clear, I decided that the King had impeached his wife for treason, but that Jasper had voted for acquittal, and the other lords, relieved of the fear that Jasper would punish them for voting against the King's wishes, had followed.

So I decided to go all the way: Jasper would be a man of very strong principles. Why should such a man support a weak and feckless, not to mention scheming and faithless, king? Hmm. Perhaps he is deathly afraid of civil war. Why? Well, his much-beloved wife was killed in the last one. And his son, why not? The last one? Okay. The King had a succession war to gain the throne. The opposite side killed Jasper's wife and son. Jasper joined the King's side, and was instrumental in the King's victory. To prevent another such war, Jasper offs all the people who might usurp the throne or raise a rebellion against royal authority. It works. Jasper is obviously a military genius. Perhaps he has made innovations of tactics and doctrine. Okay. He has invented the legion and those neat formations like the testudo. Everyone else uses, say, pike phalanxes.

Right. That's got the political and government situation sorted out, and suggested something about military affairs and the family structure. How about the physical setting?

Everyone is tired of cold snowy places like Fvaldanon. Let's make this place tropical. I really want to drive home the fact that this is a place dramatically unlike Europe. So I'll take away horses and the associated social features. Why are there no horses? Well, horses are grasslands creatures. Perhaps there are no grasslands in this place. And so horses are not imported, let's say there are no grasslands anywhere on the planet. It is a planet covered largely with water, dotted with islands, but lacking any continents.

This place is tropical, and I want to get away from European defaults. I'll make the people brown-skinned and black-haired. And small and nimble. I'll put in some European types for contrast: call their land Fairon. Hmm. this close to the equator they're probably a colony from somewhere else. Seafaring. We want them to be fierce and uncivilised. Think of them like the Norse colony in Iceland.

Tropical islands: the place is going to be wet as well as hot, and probably has monsoons (this turned out to be wrong, and I fixed it later). We'll have the Gehennese grow rice as their staple crop. And there'll be jungle on the uncultivated parts. That's interesting. Make this country an archipelago of rather rugged islands, with lots of volcanoes and jungle. Stick in tigers and elephants (or maybe jaguars and tapirs- think about it later (I ended up settling on the tigers and elephants)).

Now, I want the Gehennese to have an advanced physical culture. Maybe up to clockwork. But to make things a bit different, I'll make metals scarce and expensive, so that people still use flint edges when their blades don't have to resist chipping. Scarce metals? The world is probably less dense than Earth. But I don't want people bouncing around in Martian gravity. Make the world bigger to compensate.

Now- the sky. A sun. Make it like ours, to be simple. The year? Why not 361 days- different enough to be distinct, like enough to avoid the necessity of awkward conversions. A moon? Yes. Why not. Give it a month of 32 days. A few planets. One inferior, like Venus. Three superior- make them red, blue, and green. Is anything going to be different? Well, lets reduce the obliquity of the ecliptic a bit, to reduce seasonal effects. And for a sort of romantic symbol of the whole thing, lets put a bright light, like Venus or brighter, in geostationary orbit. That's vivid and romantic. From any given point it will be invisible, or will be fixed at a certain point in the sky. Neat! You could navigate with a sextant and compass. Or just a sextant it you were careful. You won't need a chronometer. I think I'll call the geostationary star 'Indarian'. From the country I'm working on it appears, say, low in the western sky.

Okay, I'm beginning to like this. What about those 'Charm'd magic casements' and 'fairylands forlorn'. Well, perhaps the haunted castle has magical gates set in some of the window-casements. That'd make a good device for some future adventures. And one of them opens into a forlorn fairy-land. But why is the fairyland forlorn? Are the fairies dying out? Or going somewhere else? The latter? Okay, but we don't want the PCs to go there too: that would defeat the purpose of designing this place. Make it a 'mysterious otherworld of bliss, terror, and perpetual Indarian-light'. Call it 'the Sidhe', for convenience.

Now, this place is on the equator, in the intertropical wind convergence and blocking the equatorial wind drift. Make the seas around it a warm shallow eddy, a Worl-of-Isle Sargasso. Where the sea-dragons come to breed (maybe intrepid people will hunt the sea-dragons-- for bone, or leather, or oil, perhaps). All sorts of things will drift there and wash up on the beaches. And getting away from the place by sail-power would be awkward. That gives me an idea: perhaps in other countries 'go to <this place>' would be like 'get lost' or 'go to Hell'. [Agback rummages in his memory for an obscure hell- finds 'Jehenna' (Arabic)].

I'll call the place 'Gehennum'.

Regards,


Agback
 

I don't know how original my ideas are, as that isn't necessarily a goal of mine. In my experience, most players don't really want too much originality, although they do usually appreciate a new twist on a familiar-ish setting. I also think I'm better at consolidating disparate ideas that I've picked up here and there than I am necessarily at being truly and uniquely individual. So, I start with a high-level campaign hook: something that makes the campaign world different than others I've seen or played, and then I gradually add the familiar D&D elements to it, with an eye towards how my unusual campaign hook would affect those familiar elements.
 

I find most of what I believe are original ideas do not make that big of a difference in the end product. It is the fluff (backstory) that is original and most of that the players never focus on or even learn.

For instance I have an interesting concept how monsters populated my world, it is long and I will not go into it now, but in the end there are monsters on my world.

I just try to run and play fun multifaceted games, originality foriginality.
 

I think, at times, originality is an over-rated concept. In the grand scheme of things, especially in terms of gaming, I'd rather have an old idea examined in a competent and interesting manner than a new and innovative idea that isn't well-written, well thought out or easy to implement.

Of course, that being said, there isn't much that can compare to an innovative, well written and easy to use idea or product.
 

i think that wizards of the coast do not want originality. if they get 5000 "demons attack" or "ninjaworld" settings, you bet they are going to make one the winner. it will be one of the better ones of it's group but it will still be terribly unoriginal. though i must ask, what "demons attack" or "ninjaworld" settings are there for d20? i have not seen one, though i will admit to being in the dark as far as 80% of publishers go. until it's been done it's still original weither you like it or not. if everyone is making a "demons attack" world clearly there is a market for it. self publishing is the only way you can get something published exactly the way you want. no company will publish your stuff as is.

i made a demonworld because i thought they might pick it. i also made a ninjaworld but it really blew, truth be told i hate ninjas. the wu tang clan name generator stuck me with this name when i needed a new e-mail address.
 

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